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Would you vote yes to restore National Service?

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by goz, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. Yes

  2. No

    0 vote(s)
  1. Gave me an idea from the death penalty thread...

    These days, i believe respect has gone out the window, minors know they cant be touched by the law, they cant be smacked, caning at school is gone, so they run wild and do what they want..

    I say bring back National Service and give them a taste of boot camp, put their feet so far up their bums they would even know how to spell respect..

    Someone will probably ask me, would you send your kids, my answer would be, my oath i would, i know when he/she comes home, he/she will be a better person for it.

  2. The education system has failed our kids. Let's give the army a try.
  3. Totally agree.

  4. No. This is not the 1960's. Most of this generation would not be suitable.
  5. IMO sending parents to parenting 'boot camp' before allowing them to reproduce would be a far better approach. (And about as practical, btw). By the time kids are 18 all the damage is done and National Service is likely to do more damage in some cases rather than erase it. The time to start with respect and boundaries is at birth. Even by the time they get to school it's becoming too late. Parenting is the absolute key. Put the resources into real and serious parent education and you'd see massive changes throughout society. All these other solutions, including blaming the education system, are just stopgaps - why not go to the source?
  6. Not suitable in what way?
  7. sounds like a good way to indoctrinate kids into a patriotic mentality.

    you end up with people like the 19-20 year old americans they sent over to iraq and afghanistan.

    yeah, great way for the world to progress
  8. Could be ending up that way without the help of military service. The Americanization of so many things and the lack of anything that instills a social conscience may have that effect any way.

    That patriotic mentality has a way of springing up without people having been instilled with self discipline. Just look at the race riots. That misguided patriotism had nothing to do with military service. You may find if you speak to those who have returned from places like Somalia, East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan that they had a developed a real respect for the local inhabitants and got involved in local development projects.

    As a product of the Australian military and having an awareness of the difference in the way our services train our people as opposed to the way the americans do it I can see the flaw in your argument. We are not America.
  9. Yep, I have a friend who did a year in cadets. she hates going into the city and seeing everyone being a dropkick. On NYE walking up george st after the fireworks she was saying she would love to have her camo and gun with her right now, and just walk up the middle straight through everyone.

    I wouldnt mind doing it myself, but would rather have done it earlier, the year out from school. I think it would be a good thing, send everyone away for a year after they finish school, and get some good discipline in them. of course there will be a few bad eggs. My friend believes that after army discipline, no institution could really house her, a valid point when considering some people will run rampant - she pushes the limits herself at times, just as a social experiment, lets just say that she would have miserably failed the milgram experiment.

    Logistical issues. how would they cope with 60-80000 entrants each year rather than the standard ~1000 or so? discipline would suddenly be thin on the ground i think.

    Maybe we should change all the school teachers for army grad's who teach in fatigues and with assault rifles
  10. That is probably one of the biggest issues. That and the fact that those in the military would have to baby sit a heap of people who didn't want to be there. It is hard enough for the instructors dealing with apparently motivated people who get culture shock in the first few weeks / months of their service, let alone someone who didn't want to be there. I don't think it would work on those grounds alone.

    Perhaps they could develop incentive programs such as free university after a set length of service. (Something which really should be on offer to everyone anyhow - but that is another argument)
  11. ^^^ slowly ramping up the entrance numbers should in theory result in more instructors, picking it up until they can carry everyone through. realistically, this may not work.

    A night or two in a confinement cell might influence some more unwilling participants. Do they still use these?

    Goz: how do they punish misbehaviour in the army/cadets?
  12. Some countries still have national service. My wife is Finnish, males have to do at least 6 months (between 18 and 28 yo), women it's optional. Don't want to do it? 182 days in jail, no parole. Our son who was born in Finland and left when he was 9 months old will have the option to do Finnish national service when he's old enough.

    I did 4.5 years in the army including 2 overseas deployments. Can teach you a lot about discipline, teamwork, leadership, fitness etc.
  13. I work with some of the most difficult kids society can offer. I have and do manage to teach deeply disturbed and violent kids without hitting them with sticks just fine thanks. :wink:

    I'll preface this by saying that I don't think kids today are any worse than in the past. The only difference now is that the media is more able to resease beat up and stories to a wider audience. There have always been good kids and kids in need of better social education. We just hear a lot more about the latter while the good kids happily behave themselves away from the spot light.

    Most of the problems with kids having little respect these days is not due to schools, government policys or a lack of wars. Like in the past, kids learn respect and social manners from their parents/care givers from a young age. Some parents are too lazy to put the effort into teaching their kids respect for others and some never learned respect for others themselves. I think doctors, psychologists, social workers and teachers would find managing some kids a lot easier when they focus less on treating ADHD and more on treating ADPD (Attention Deficit Parenting Disorder).

    Remember.... All kids make mistakes and screw up. That is how they learn and for the most part, they have people in their lives to teach and model ways to deal with these issues. Some kids unfortunately lack good role models, but sending all kids to the army seems like a bizzarely extreme reaction.

    Kids with behavioural problems do often respond well to structure and routine. They (like any kids) require boundries and the opportunity to learn from mistakes. It's not a good idea however, to give those kids guns. Weapons are best given to people after they learn about respect and discipline. Giving someone a gun, then taking away their freedom while people shout abuse at them is unlikely to be helpful. :)
  14. Whatever happened to parental responsibility for how the kids turn out? The education system is not responsible for that, nor is the army.
  15. I think that's absolute crap, personally. Working in call centres the only people that swear, abuse me, are rude and confrontational are those over the age of 40.That generation are the rudest, most arrogant and aloof. I think this thread might actually help prove my point.

    Anyway, that being said I think that national service is a good thing, even if they were to call me up. Give everyone a choice, you can fell trees, work on infastructure projects so that you don't have to head into the military if you don't want to.
  16. If you're looking to a compulsory stint in the military to solve some of the problems of today's youth, you're looking in the wrong place. Compulsory military service FOR THEIR PARENTS would have prevented many of the bad attitudes the children exhibit.

    As for the usual facile 'the schools have failed' crap, it's plain that's being spouted by people who have never worked in a school. If you did you would understand that while the teachers are supposed to be mother and father and counsellor and nurturer and confessor and priest and every other thing, while parents abnegate ALL responsibilities, the teachers likewise have zero authority where it really matters; in discipline.
  17. Paul, my wife is a teacher, and the stories i hear are unbelievable, once, one of the kids went to the principle and told the principle that my wife slapped her across the face, wtf, my wife walks around ants so she dosnt step on them, ended up being a dare from the other kids to do it but the emotional strain my mrs went through with all the head honchos from catholic education interviewing my mrs making her feel guilty and shit was pissing me off, even after all that the kid got to stay in the school, kids run up to the teachers and hug them and the teachers cant even push them away or hug them back cause they can be done for harrassment and bullying, stuff that for a job, not worth the stress
  18. Life is hard enough dealing with all the difficulties that being a Serviceperson entails. They seriously do NOT need extra crap in dealing with kids whose parents were too lazy/busy or too happy to load up on ADHD drugs to parent properly. Get enuf of that already. Dnt even want to THINK about what would happen if that small group of miscreants that they DO deal with, suddenly appeared in their thousands.

    Discipline starts at home. NOT at school. And its not the place for the ADF or teachers to fix what the home neglected. Servicemen/women MUST be dedicated to their job to GET the job done. A shift in that dedication makes a weakness in YOUR line of defence in a war like situation.

    That is why Australia has a voluntary Service. Makes for dedicated, better and more professional soldiers/sailors/airmen.

    my two cents worth anyways.
  19. I voted no but I've changed my mind. Countries with national service put vast quantities of dirt cheap, high quality, barely used gear on the market, to be snapped up by impecunious bargain hunters.

    My early biking days and my career as a landscaper would have been much less comfortable without a plentiful supply of cheap German boots, trousers, shirts and combat jackets.
  20. Paul, you're spot on, parents need to take responsibility for their children. Daylan, I agree that the ADF needs to retain its professional focus and has enough on its plate already.

    I spent one year in a school-based cadet unit, and I think an hour spent on parade ground every other week with a Regimental Sergeant Major (a Non Commissioned Officer) yelling down your back due to your deficiency in marching or presentation could do these delinquents a world of good. It teaches you discipline, respect, to take pride in your appearance, comradeship, and self-sufficiency.

    Compulsory school-based cadets would help develop these qualities in our youth where parents have so miserably failed, while placing minimal burden on the ADF. There is without a doubt a significant number of ex-ADF personal who would welcome the work and opportunity to pass on their values to a younger generation, and as such the program could be run at minimal cost relative to the benefit provided.