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Witness to one more young rider crashing

Discussion in 'Your Near Misses - A Place to Vent' started by GugaWedge, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. Went with my better half to an organized ride today and it didn't take more than 1/2 hour to have one of the riders crash and write off his 2 months old bike, luckily without long lasting personal consequences, even though the crash took the rider sliding across the other lane and into the guard rail.

    Although we know that there are always idiots with more bravery than skill, this was not the case. The convoy was actually doing the road's speed limit and well within the sensible speed for the conditions (proof of that is the fact that the rider just behind the crashed individual was on a cruiser with low mufflers carrying his young kid on the back and he had no trouble doing the same turn at the same speed). The bike was also obviously not at fault, being a brand new Mt-07.

    After discussing with the kid what he thought happened he was the one stating he stomped his back brake as he entered the turn on a panic reaction, when he though he was entering the corner too fast.

    All this just makes believe more and more that mandatory rider training with certified instructors in controlled conditions should be part of the new license requirements. I understand the logistic difficulties, in particular for people that reside away from the cities (as I do), but having to do a long trip and spend a couple hundred dollars on a day's worth of training might be worth the hassle, if it means increasing your chances of keeping your 2 wheels pointing where they should. The information acquired during this sessions can then be practiced in controlled conditions (car parks, off road in cross bikes, kart tracks...) before putting the new drivers out in situations where the wrong instincts (and decisions) can mean a life lost.

    Don't get me wrong: I understand that part of the package of riding a motorcycle is the chance of crashing, and no matter how experienced or skilled you are, you are still going to sooner or later. It is all a matter of improving the odds. I am sure than any decent instructor would have told the kid that slamming the rear break, while leaned over mid-way through a mid speed corner is bound to cause you to slide. That information might have saved him from crashing today, maybe not, but would for sure increase his odds.

    On the upside he was wearing proper clothing, including a pair of proper race boots. It might have just saved his foot as it got stuck under the steel tensioning cable of the rail guard. If he was wearing anything else, a broken foot would be a lucky outcome...

    Vent over...
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  2. Now that we know the rider's okay, please tell me his bike was insured. Please I beg you. It's a freakn MT-07 that was going to be my next bike but that plan delayed due to losing my job. The bike's 10 grand damn it.
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  3. #3 cjvfr, Jul 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
    Yes more initial training may have helped him, it depends on the personality of the individual. What we should be wary of, is well meaning forced courses, that decrease the affordability of motorcycle licenses. You have highlighted one of the problems for those not in major population centres. From your description he overcooked the corner and the SR's took control. Hopefully your discussion with him and the incident itself will make it a learning experience.

    We should also consider that if he was on his own would the same situation have occurred. The group ride experience can sometimes push people beyond their skill level. Following a more experienced rider and trying to emulate their braking points and lines can be a recipe for disaster. Did the ride leader impress on the group the "Ride your own Ride" mantra?

    More training is not a panacea and should be used as one of the tools in turning a base newbie into a competent rider but not the only tool we can use.
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  4. Agree with cjvfrcjvfr, group rides with a mix of riders, sometimes pushes a newbie just a little to much. As was stated 'the rider himself, thought he was going through the corner a bit quick' then dabbed the rear brake ( l can almost guarantee as a newbie, he would have grabbed some front brake as well!) Even though, the ride was keeping with in the speed limit, it was still a little high for this fella.
    I'm glad he is okay, and hope he learns a great deal from this experience.
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  5. Agree that training is not the miracle pill that will prevent all crashes. As I said it is just about improving the odds slightly. Also agree that cost is an issue, but again as I said I believe a couple hundred $ to improve your chances of not hurting yourself must be a great investment, don't you agree? Kind of like investing in protective gear and dealing with the fact that you might not look cool or be as comfortable...

    And yes, riding in groups does tend to lead to people succumbing to peer pressure and going over their limits and rider training will not fix that directly.

    I don't believe for a second that you don't agree that rider training should be part of a rider's development at some stage... ;)

    ...oh and he was insured (bike was paid with a loan).
  6. :) You are right that I am a believer that rider training does improve you chances and is a good personal investment. I am just cautious of compulsory requirements. One of the Mods robsalvvrobsalvv has a link in his sig Beating the Odds there are a lot of things you can do yourself to improve your odds.

    I want to stress I am not being critical of anybody on this ride, people have responsibility for their own actions. Ride leaders are to be admired and supported.
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  7. #7 Oldmaid, Jul 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
    I no longer know what age 'kid' refers to anymore...but one thing I really have to be conscious of, is as a driver who took up riding, my foot just wants to slam down on the rear brake in a sudden stop.
    I have improved a lot in not doing that but I think it is such a deep insinctive thing to do as an old driver (~40yrs) that may just bring me unstuck one day :(
    I do keep working on it though.

    I think that the HART type courses are great. I did the road skills and confidence course about 2weeks before my Ps and at that stage I had been riding 3 and a bit months...it was very good and I learnt a lot.
    The St Ives course is great because it is windy and laid out like a real road. It used to be a police training road set up.
    In February 2015 I did the HART advanced 1 course. Excellent. Really fanged it around corners, did emergency stops at 70 km/hr and emergency stops mid cornering at 60 km/ hr. Fantastic. I was so happy after that course.
    It was really worthwhile.
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  8. #8 Coljon, Jul 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
    Yes, agree, I think all learners/P's etc should do specific courses at a track, especially at speed in a controlled environment so the experience is not new to them. Maybe the legal ramifications are too complicated for that to become compulsory but if there are any L/P,s out there reading this then book in for a track courses ASAP. A qualified & experienced rider/racer will teach you how to avoid the challenges that come with gaining experience as a bike rider, probably will be cheaper in the long run as well, not to mention life or limb saving.

    Those type of courses are fantastic insurance for ones riding future for sure.
  9. but OldmaidOldmaid that is a muscle memory, something trained into you, the only way to remove the association is to Ride, and mentally note to yourself not to do it. Wait till you start hooning..err riding on dirt!

    It's one of those things I have noticed in late starters and returning riders.
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  10. Yep real reflex action that's for sure but I keep at myself not to do it and yep I want to get real dirty some time soon as well :)
    Not getting much riding in at the moment just a coupla snatched hours this arvo but better thsn none...had been two weeks :(
  11. #11 TWEET, Jul 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
    Make any training mandatory, and watch the vultures that run the training outlets fleece the noobs. It is far from the ideal solution. What should be done is rather than spend day 1 pushing the bike about on the pre-L's course, they should get more time riding, and demonstrations of what happens when doing things in a ham-fisted/footed way.

    For many many years there was no formal training requirement, and I don't think the statistics would be much better now than they were then (as a percentage given rider numbers have increased markedly).
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  12. Totally agree on road training, even if its minor cornering techniques/lines etc. Also the bike could have played a part the MT07 can practically power wheelie...

    But I'm a firm believer on non restricted bikes for learning ie. 250/300 range.
    (A little bias.)
  13. I'm against compulsory training; it's only one more bullshit complication. Maybe it works(don't want to go there) but the fact is force breeds unhelpful resentment. Maybe if he'd read into Keith Code's teachings it would have been different too. fcuk if only if onlys; chill out and live your own life. I'm fine, plenty of others are fine because of diligence, not because some disgusting pollie or misguided do gooder made it so.
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  14. Less compulsory training and more, it being part of the License/Learner Course the rider is taking. Not extra days etc. but an overhaul at least in Victoria on how the courses are delivered (Apparently coming soon from VicRoads anyways) and an audit of how they are done at the present time.
  15. Yeah. throw em 2 the wolfs, no pain, no gain, sound advice.
  16. Hey OldmaidOldmaid I was/am in the same situation as you.
    Have a read of this thread and the article which forms the first post News - The Motorcycle Back Brake Is There For A Reason. Use It! | Netrider - Australia's Best Motorcycle Community

    And my own humble contribution in that thread in relation to only taking up riding in a serious way later in life, and the difficulties I encountered.
    News - The Motorcycle Back Brake Is There For A Reason. Use It! | Page 2 | Netrider - Australia's Best Motorcycle Community

    As others have said, practice practise practise, ride ride ride, practice practise practise, ride ride ride, lather rinse repeat.

    Besides, how much fun is it?
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  17. Compulsory/mandatory will always bring negative connotations, but it is hard to argue against (good) training courses.

    Maybe if there were incentives such as off P's sooner, lower rego & 3rd party insurance there would be a decent take-up of courses. These "incentives would almost be a zero cost to government coffers as the training (should) help reduce the number of crashes and the associated emergency and medical cost to the community. Maybe even the private insurance companies could get behind this with graduates offered cheaper insurance.
  18. Yes indeed gunissangunissan :)
    The HART course did teach me about using the rear brake through tight tight hairpins (which I do now) and started to introduce the concept in corners you came into a bit hot but that was to lure you into the Advanced II when you had gone away and practiced what you learnt for a while...lizard brain :woot:

    IMHO I don't think compulsory 'anything' helps in the long run and can introduce a whole new meaning to mediocrity...but I got a discount for my HART course off my comprehensive insurance. Carrot and stick always works well for most...some just enjoy the stick a bit more ;)
  19. Yes The carrot approach rather than the stick approach is the best long term option. People who have incentives to improve will generally see the benefit and act. The stick approach just breeds resentment.
  20. Private health insurers...now there's a great example of what happens to cost if you make something (almost) mandatory.
    Don't have it? Get slugged a penalty after you turn 30yo for every year you have delayed.
    Have it? Get slugged an extortionate amount of money with the hungry kunts lobbying the govt for increases every year.
    Id be careful seeking a discount there, because I'd those fcukers know you are about to start riding a bike they will want to increase your premium.
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