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...Windy flying...

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by Tweetster, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. #1 Tweetster, Jan 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    ... was bored...viewing youtube... and found this:

    [media=youtube]j7IzxTajHC4[/media]

    *Yikes!!*.....


     
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  2. Yep

    Gusty crosswinds on landing, a pilot's favorite friend.....
    Nickers can vouch for that...
     
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  3. Hahaha, these can be one of the most challenging manoeuvres when flying large passenger jet with swept back wings.
    I cannot vouch for an A320 (the aircraft in the vid) but the A330 certainly is certified for a crosswind up to 40kts for landing... 40 x 1.852 = ~74km/hr !!! That's a hefty wind.

    To maintain our currency (on top of daily practise - had 15kts crosswind from the left during approach into Hong Kong early this morning), we practise the manoeuvres regularly in the simulator ('stimulator') with winds right up to the 'demonstrated' limit of 40kts for landing.

    It takes a certain approach/method to carry this out but after a few it's actually quite easy, only that the visuals (what you see outside your front windshield) is different than normal...ie, for a strong crosswind from the right (the case in Tweetster's youtube link) the runway would be viewed out of the Captain's front windshield, if the First Officer is flying (from Right seat), that is, due to the drift offset to maintain the runway centreline during the approach.

    Where this A320 screwed-the-pooch (resulting in the left wing contacting the ground) was during the flare phase. Replay and you'll see that when they started 'flaring' for landing (ie, reducing their rate of descent for the touchdown during that ever slight increase in nose up attitude at the last stages), there was NO (or insufficient) aileron into wind input whatsoever to firstly keep the aircraft aligned with the runway centreline and secondly (most importantly) avoid having the strong wind (from the right) pick up the right wing, causing them to drift rapidly across to the left, and have the left wing come in contact with the runway surface.

    Many pilots interpret events such as these in different ways, however each and every company has its specific SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) outlining the procedure, when/when not to continue an approach into an airport with veery gusty conditions.

    If the wind forecast on the ground was greater than the aircraft's crosswind limit, as 'demonstrated' by test pilots during the certification phase, then in an ideal world that aircraft should not have even attempted that approach, into that airport. However, they may have been following the guidelines set out by that company, so I cannot comment or apply my 'back-seat-Pilot' feedback - not fair to the crew on the day who were actually there.
    I'm sure, IF it's safe to do so, the passengers would 'prefer' the crew to at least attempt to land at the airport they paid money to arrive at, so in this sense, kudos to the crew.

    My 2 cents...
     
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  4. ..thanks for the info!!...:grin: .. it just looks so darn tricky to a passenger like meself!!...8-[
     
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  5. Tweetster.. I cracked up laughing with your first line...!!!

    Reminded me of Dr Evil when he loses it for not being kept up-to-date with changes upon his return from cryogenic freezing....

    "Can somebody remind me what I pay you for ??? I'm the boss, I need the iiiiiinfoooooooh.... Okay, no problem" :D

    Crosswind landings are easier with the wind being stronger but consistent.
    There's nothing worse than a crosswind piss-farting around the 5-10 knot value (light-medium) and being variable in strength !
     
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  6. #6 ogden, Jan 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Here's another set of x-wind vids.

    [URL="
    ]
    [/URL]

    The one you posted tweetster, is in there somewhere. Its interesting to see that the pilots in a couple of them only kicked it straight after the windward-side wheels had touched down. Don't know if this was intentional or not.

    When I was learning to fly I was taught to drop the windward wing slightly when kicking the aircraft straight, and then to try and hold it slightly down to try and prevent that wing lifting. It also helps to "pin" the windward undercarriage wheel to the tarmac and stop you sliding off to the downwind side of the centreline after you've touched down. Doesn't always help you though.

    I imagine this is the same technique for all aircraft. Is that right, Nickers? Or does the inertia of the big jets help you out a bit more?

    It's also interesting how long you have to keep 'flying' an aeroplane after it is on the ground, just to keep it tracking straight while the speed washes off. This has caught many a student pilot out at one or another.
     
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  7. ....Hey Nickers!!, it's great getting the low down from someone who is in the know. Us mere mortals watch this stuff and go oooooh!! & ahhhhh!!, so to get info from such as yourself is fab! :)
     
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  8. #8 Nickers330, Jan 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Knowledge is for parting & sharing with others, in the same manner I gain on the depth of my 2 wheeled knowledge herein (y)

    Wanna see an awesome video on Crosswind Landings ?

    Watch this - (previously flew this type)...
    [media=youtube]HK6jDsact3c[/media]
    (with a little music to make it more enjoyable)

    (y)
     
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  9. #9 joetdm, Jan 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Awsome flying...
     
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  10. ..weird to watch them sortta hover!!... :-s
     
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  11. They look like they're hovering because of their size which would require them to be moving a little faster than the national speed limit...
     
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  12. Ogden,

    When I was learning to fly I was taught to drop the windward wing slightly when kicking the aircraft straight, and then to try and hold it slightly down to try and prevent that wing lifting. It also helps to "pin" the windward undercarriage wheel to the tarmac and stop you sliding off to the downwind side of the centreline after you've touched down. Doesn't always help you though.

    The technique you describe is 100% correct mate. As you may remember, there are 2 types of Crosswind landing techniques which can be used separately or in conjunction with each other, the Sideslip method, and the Crab method.

    I won't go into detail on each but I will mention that a method used on one aircraft, ie the Sideslip method, may not be suitably incorporated into another aircraft's approach/landing technique.

    You mentioned "Doesn't always help you though"
    Again, this could be due to the crosswind being variable, making controlling that little bit more spontaneously challenging, or simply not enough/too much input of rudder, aileron or again a combination of both.




    I imagine this is the same technique for all aircraft. Is that right, Nickers? Or does the inertia of the big jets help you out a bit more ?


    The intertia certainly helps, no doubt about that whatsoever. Big jets, also (generally) have a larger crosswind limit for landing than say, a Cessna or Piper light aircraft. So, as is fairly evident in turbulent/gusty conditions, it'll be 'felt' more in a (pardon me for the expression) 'Lighter' aircraft.

    Classical 'Mechanics' & Physics reveals that Momentum (P) = mass (m) x velocity (v)

    Plugging some generic numbers here will make it instantly evident of the assistance in increased momentum. Remember, this increased momentum on a jet means you have to think much more ahead of the game when making changes to minor vertical or lateral flight path excursions, before they become excessive. Scanning and energy management here is paramount.

    Another point of note, re crosswind landing techniques. Passenger jet airliners typically have low mounted wings with under-slung engines. These engines provide sufficient but not much ground clearance, so the Sideslip Method may, (classic case, Tweetster's link) cause either wing or an engine pod strike !
    Therefore, I adopt the Crab method, in the same manner as the A320 in the video, then apply a mix of crab/sideslip at 30ft above the runway, the commencement of the landing flare. This procedure is the correct Airbus approved (by their test pilots during certification flights) and the one generally adopted during the service life of the aircraft.
     
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  13. Now THAT'S drifting!

    Am I insane to want to be on those jets while they do that? :D
     
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  14. Thanks the response, Nick. I thought what you said about the extra inertia of bigger aircraft meaning you have to be more 'ahead of the game' very interesting. I've never flown anything bigger than a warrior. Most of my lessons were conducted by my old man (who's just retired from commercial flying). He'd be quite insistent about the need to fly proactively, spot things early and make the appropriate minor adjustment, rather than spot things late, make exaggerated corrections, and then have to go chasing these when you'd overdone it. So I found what you said about quite meaningful.

    Most of my flying was in a Tigermoth over at Moorabbin. As you'd know, they're only rated for a maximum 10kts cross wind. Occasionally on days with a SSWesterly blowing, the crosswind with with creep up to 14 or 15 kts in between taking off and coming back. Operations would be on 17L and 17R. Depending on the day, it would sometimes be a similar cross wind component on 22, so there'd be little point in requesting it. I'd hand the thing over to Dad, and he'd get it down it down on 17R by flying along the LH gable markers before turning directly into wind at about 15-20ft, touching down in the tarmac and then trundling off into the grass. (Couldn't do it on 17L for fear of striking the runway lights, and the risk that, if you caught a gust and ballooned it, you'd cross over into 17R.) It sounds a bit hairy, but I think it was simply the safest way to do it if you were confident eye-balling your flair height and how much runway you'd use up before touching down. You'd want to be confident with the plane and have a steady breeze to attempt it though.
     
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  15. I don't have any video, but some of the most awesome crosswind landings I've seen were the Fletcher aerial topdressing pilots landing in the paddocks they called airstrips. You could get as close as you dared/wanted, and as a kid riding my pushy home from school, that was pretty darn close he he he.
    The pilots used to like the really really steep strips 'cause they could overload the planes, and use the momentum on the downhill takeoff to get airborne, then follow the valleys to gain enough airspeed/altitude to actually climb. Mad stuff.
     
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  16. A Pilot earns his/her keep and builds on his/her experience ten-fold during those 'Mad stuff' times.
    The amount of 'moments' I've had during my single pilot flying days would be enough to ride a book on ! I am where I am today because of all those previous challenging, demanding and sometimes horrifying experiences. It's this 'bush' time, whether it be in PNG or Outback NT, which the Major Airlines consider as 'Valuable Experience' and sadly, in today's day and age, with scholarships available straight into the right seat of a medium-sized turboprop and above, the modern day entrant to aviation lacks much of this experience.
    This is to be expected though, worldwide, as a mass Pilot shortage will embark upon all airlines, creating possibly one of their collective biggest problems in history.

    I missed out on going to PNG but have seen plenty of pictures of uphill/downhill/cliff-top airstrips and shared many a story with fellow colleagues 'lucky' enough to have done some time there. Equally rewarding, I thoroughly enjoyed my 6 years outback flying all over the Northern Territory. Again, countless memorable experiences.
     
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