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Where do the wheels go?

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by murchy, Sep 30, 2011.

  1. So the title doesn't say much here, but I honestly couldn't think of a better way to put it, nor do I know where to start.

    There is one thing that has been worrying me lately when I'm out on the spurs - a car/truck appearing in front of me in my lane as I'm already pitched over mid corner.

    I'm not one to panic in most situations - I've had my fair share of SMIDSY's and other retardedness, so I'm not really surprised anymore when a car tries to occupy the same space as me.

    What I'm more concerned about is my lack of understanding of where the wheels go when I countersteer into and out of leans.

    Say I am forced right to the edge of the road (so that my tyres are on the road, but my body and the bulk of the bike is leaning over the edge of the road), I assume that any form of countersteering would push the wheels off the edge and into the dirt.

    I guess my question is as follows:
    How much space do the tyres need to transfer from full lean in one direction to at least upright and vice versa.

  2. How is this a stupid question?
  3. My guess...none at all (or so little it doesn't matter, I suspect we're talking millimetres or less here - not as wide as your contact patch).

    Let me make sure I understand you.

    Left hand bend, you're really tight on the inside, ride up against the left edge of the road. Now you want to straighten up so you push on the right bar. The front wheel moves ever so slightly to the right, the bike starts to straighten up, your line loosens and you're immediately moving away from the edge of the road. I don't think straightening up will really push you any significant amount closer to the edge of the road

    Just a thought, the amount the front wheel moves to the right will be dependent on your speed. At really slow speeds, countering steering throws the wheel to the right further than at faster speeds.
  4. Thanks Luke,
    I'd always assumed that to be the case (little or no movement), but one of raven's remarks about a near miss video (something along the lines of not having enough space to countersteer so he just stood the bike upright) made me want to double check.

    Edit: Found the quote:
  5. You can answer this yourself.
    Each tyre profile and bike and rider is diff so it's a bit of a string question.
    go cut 6 tennis balls in half and space them out ten pace long and two wide then work them into one wide and so forth till you cant slalom anymore and there's your answer.
    Oh and do it at 60 to 80 k's so you have a real world answer
  6. On my bike, going hard in tight twisties, ficking from side to side: About the width of my shoulders.

    But my wheel doesn't run off the road because I use the throttle to start standing the bike up, and my line is away from the edge before I flick over. If on the inside edge of a tight left and did not use the throttle to start standing up the bike, I could definitely run the tyres off the left edge of the road. I nearly have at times.
  7. Thanks for that reply, pretty much what I thought.
  8. Mmm...a conundrum.

    Firstly, refer to my post that you attached up above.
    In THAT situation, i judged that the bike would move to the right just an inch or so before the actual turning to the left began. I was watching the tray of the truck still moving towards me as the rear continued to cut the corner more.
    I could'nt start a turn anyway because i was blocked on the inside until i got clearence, and that did'nt happen until pretty late in the game.

    I just wanted me and the bike 'running quiet' beside the truck. Just a steady, settled, and positioned bike, coz it was gonna be tight.
  9. Here's an interesting bike control you can add to your toolbox.
    Set a fist sized bit of rock on the road and approach it at say30-40k's.

    Now the manouvre.

    Just before you hit it, give a forceful and quick counterseer, in either direction.
    NOT to change lines or road positioning.
    As the front wheel travels a little in the opposite direction before turning, you can use THAT few inches to move the front wheel out of the way of the rcck quickly.

    Your front wheel veers off and comes bacl to it's original position, with the bike continueing on in a srraight line.
    That's tough to explain!
  10. Stop being such a tosser. This is the 'New Riders' section of the forum. There are no stupid questions here, just stupid answers, like your witty remark. So get off your high horse and either contribute or keep your mouth shut.
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Hmmm, so my aim will be to move the front wheel of the bike away from a small object without altering the line of the bike itself?
    I'll have to give it a go when this rain stops, as this does sound like a useful trick to have up my sleeve.
  12. Better not to use a rock though. Perhaps a piece of rubber or something similar on the road, and draw a chalk line around it so that you can see if it moves, so you know if you hit it. Maybe something with colour so you can see it easily on approach.

    A fist sized rock probably wouldn't make you fall off the bike, but may give you a fright, and could damaged the wheel rim.
  13. Yes. Here's an attempt at describing it better. ( note, your rear wheel is probably going to hit the object, but that is irrelavant)

    So...assume you want to countersteer left.
    You give the left side bar a quick positive push. For an instant the front wheel first turns to the RIGHT.
    you use that movement to avoid the rock or rubber block etc. So that the item passes INSIDE your front wheel.
    Then you countersteer quickly back to the right by pushing on the right bar to continue straight ahead

    In a nutshell, you are throwing your front wheel out around the object at the very last second, to avoid hitting it.

    You'll use this technique more than you think in the lower speeds around suburbia. Once the speeds gets up it becomes ineffective because you can't move the wheel out enough to avoid it. Usually in that case you would change your line to miss it, or, as is usually the case, hit it!
  14. Quite right. There is always someone.

    Please allow me to correct you on something just for the future, as it IS a bit confusing.

    This is the "new riders and riding tips" section.
    Not the 'new riders and riding tips for new riders" section :)
    The riding tips part is for any rider.

    Nothing to do with the intent of your post. It's only that you mentioned it.
  15. Ah yep, sounds good. Will definitely practice up on it, thanks!
  16. Lol. Methinks you don't know what i'm talking about. :)
    No biggie.
  17. If I may try to understand this - basically using the countersteering manouvre itself, to flick the front wheel around the obstacle. i.e. You are focussed not on a corner so to speak... but more deviating the front wheel around something.

    Now normally pushing on the bar would initiate a corner, but you then say to give a quick countersteer the opposite direction to straighten up. i.e. using the front wheel directly, to avoid an obstacle. Given you don't actually want to corner, you need to give an 'opposite countersteer' to straighten the bike up.

    In summary, if the front wheel drew a line on the road, it would be in the shape of an "S" almost - or a skewed version of it. Quick push on left bar, steers the front wheel right around the obstacle, and then a quick push on the right bar to straighten it back up on the initial line.

    Sound right?
  18. Haha, I promise I do get it... Or at least I think I do :p I used to do something similar on my push bike. It actually resulted in my first major 2-wheel crash around age 10. My driveway out in the sticks was about 500m long hill, with worn flat tyre tracks, and tons of loose gravel on the edges. One day I decided it would be a fun idea to set a bunch of rocks along the last 100m of one of the tyre tracks, and then try to dodge them after tearing down the hill as fast as I could. Similar use of countersteering, not enough space to slalom around the rocks, so I usually pushed the front wheel around them, with the back wheel ending up glancing off their sides. I had to keep the line roughly straight or the bike would get out of control and end up in the gravel (pain).

    For those interested, crash was the result of hitting one of those rocks dead on with the front tyre, ending with me going straight over the handlebars.

    Sorry if this turns into a wall of text, iPhone isn't good at editing.
  19. From 2:00
    Ignore his explanation - it's the slow-mo video I'm pointing out.