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When will they learn?? When they are taught!!

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by brownyy, Jan 18, 2010.

  1. Link.

    The herald sun print this morning is asking "when will they learn they are not bullet proof?". Here's a fukn idea, when they are taught how to handle a motor vehicle.

    In this horrible case 5 youngen's are dead and the girl will be traumatised for the rest of her life, and lets not get started on the impact it will cause for the families and friends.

    In this case I don't defend the speeding, but more the knowledge and skill of the driver. Was it his fault? Who knows, but what I will bet my money on is that he probably only had to pass a piss easy 20 minute driver test which involves a U-turn or 3 point turn etc, with absolutely no training or testing in emergency braking / handling / vehicle performance and limitations.

    IMO if ever road user had to pass a more stringent testing scheme, such as pushing a car past its limits on a skid pan or training track, these sorts of events would be further and fewer between. When was the last time you, as a rider (regardless of experience) entered into a corner deliberately too hot / fast?? Probably never? Who would enter a corner faster then they knew they could handle it??

    Answer - the inexperienced and untrained.

    These sorts of horrible events will continue to occur until driver education from day one is properly implemented. Until then, teenagers, all of us at one point in time, will continue to feel bullet proof. And with a new toy - the first car or license at one's disposal for fun and newly acquired independence - will continue to feel bullet proof in the car and have such accidents.

    /end rant.

  2. it was a straight ****ing piece of road.....even at 140 how the **** do you crash unless you a being a dick ](*,)
  3. I see the merit in training but thinking back to when I was that age, it only would have meant that those who would have gone fast would have go even faster because they've been trained so you're still faced with that same problem. What then? A change in mindset would go further than training.

    That had me a bit baffled as well. They ended up off the road somehow.
  4. I've been a passenger in a car where the driver decided to be "cool" and started swerving on a very straight piece of road.. for no apparent reason other than to prove how much of a dick he was.
  5. I probably summarised too many thoughts in too fewer words. What I was hinting towards, if the driver was aware of how the vehicle would handle with all that weight, and how serving a car side to side can easily make it come unstuck and do the standard under-steer-over-correct serve, he may not have done it in the first place.
  6. Well in this case, what better time is there to be cool when you have six passengers and you just left a party. And there was a passenger hanging out a window. It seems the passengers wanted to be as cool as the driver.

    Speeding away from 'gate crashers' at a party. They were probably drunk, that would explain these 'reports' of a passenger hanging out the window, and the fact that there were that many people in the car.

    This is what happens to idiots in cars.
  7. I've been there once before as well. I thought I was going to end up wrapped around a pole or in the adjacent creek. We were fishtailing so wildly that both were faced and someone walking their dog on the footpath dragged it as far away from the road as possible. The driver laughed at me afterwards and making fun of me because I shat myself but I looked at his face when it was happening and he was worried as well...... the things that happen when you're young. After that, I made sure I wasn't the passenger with anyone who I knew or suspected would do things like that. Going fast in a straight line is one thing but deliberately increasing your chances of going off the road and hitting something is another.
  8. OK, I see your point. From personal experience, once I cleared my early 20s I understood and realised that (learnt from my mistakes) so avoid doing that. I suppose training those with some intelligence and thoughts of keeping themselves and their passengers out of trouble will work that out as well. For the rest, we'd have to pin our hopes on ESC saving them.
  9. The attitude towards road safety both in this state by the authorities, and the f*ckwad wowsers who post in the Herald-Sun, is utterly appalling.

    It's all about the "big stick" mentality to them. If people do the wrong, then use a bigger stick to hit them with. If some drivers kill themselves due to a dangerous combination of youthful exuberance and inexperience (and possibly alcohol), then the only solution that seems to occur to the minds of these myopic idiots is to get yet an even bigger stick to hit everyone else with.

    I wholly agree that better education is what's needed. Heck, it should even be an option before getting one's P plates that a new driver can attend a properly organised track day to get that youthful exuberant need for speed out of their systems, and as a result, and provide ongoing well organised track-day events open them up to the avenue to explore speed in a safe place. Doing the above solves one of the big problems of new inexperienced drivers finding out top speeds in dangerous public road scenarios.

    The second issue is just sheer driver inexperience, and there needs to be more stringent formal tests set up to actually teach people to drive above and beyond learning the basic control of the vehicle.
  10. Can't outlaw stupidity, though. Training is good and important, laws have their place, but in the end, you can't stop idiots behaving like idiots. Or even relatively smart people from having a rush of blood to the head - I know, I've had my share.
  11. To answer the title of this thread - when they are over 25, probably.

    This morning's talkback included some 'experts' (yeh, I know), who pointed to the recent research that has shown that young men's brains are actually hard-wired to ignore danger. It appears that bravado is a natural part of development, and only starts to be replaced by an ability to appraise risk once they approach their middle 20s.

    If this is true - and the research has been corroborated - then nothing will teach young men to be afraid of either crashing, or being punished. In that case they either need to make decisions to avoid environments where excessive risks are likely to present themselves (motor vehicles and partying in this case), or if they can't do that, have limitations imposed until they grow up.

    I'm not happy to say that, but it seems to be the truth.

    Access to a safer environment (motorsport?) where risk can be present but managed, would help, along with training. Most drivers don't realise how thin the line between control and loss of control actually is, until they get training.
  12. +1 to Titus. All the training in the World won't stop a <20yo from doing something stupid if they think it will make them look cool. They are natural risk takers and whilst there are lots of 20yo's who do look at risks and weigh the options, there are a lot who don't.

    It's a terrible tragedy for everyone, but more laws, more restrictions won't change a thing. They will just find another outlet to show off.
  13. But at least when the back end steps out worse than they expected it to, they'll have the correct trained reflexes to recover the slide, or at least mitigate it somewhat.

    I doubt training will prevent people from driving in a silly fashion or too fast for the conditions. But I can count at least two instances where skills developed in grass khanacross have saved my butt (and my passenger's) while driving through the city sedately.

    As FLUX and others have said - we don't even test drivers' abilities to respond to an emergency threat.
  14. [​IMG]
    'Because there wasn't a camera there to stop him drifting into a tree.'

  15. According to reports he wasn't driving 'sedately' though.

    I agree, education, training and skills development have huge benefits to everyone, but whether they'd stop an accident like this is of doubt.
  16. Although I agree the whole system needs some work, you can't stop people being stupid, all you can try and do is give them the skills to save them selves.
  17. Latest reports suggest that the driver was heavily under the influence of alcohol.

    In that case, short of simply not having a car to drive, nothing was really going to stop this.
  18. As a community, we need to challenge the BS that speed alone causes crashes. We also need to be honest and accept the fact that excessive speed does make crashes worse, and can contribute to a loss of control. But when someone spears off a straight road into a tree, it doesn't matter whether they were doing 40 or 140, something else was the main reason it happened. If you won't look for it, you won't find it.

    This is why efforts to cut the road toll have plateaued.

    I saw it happen last year. About 400m ahead of me a wagon driven by a mother with two toddlers in the back wandered off the road into a tree. No serious injuries, amazingly enough (she can thank Subaru for that!) but I was pacing her and I know there was no speeding involved. I've got my own ideas on what it might have been, but in truth it would be speculation.

    When the cop finally arrived half an hour later, he hadn't even got both feet out of his car before he started shouting about how "speed must have been a factor"! I was asked to tell him what I had seen, but as soon as I said, "No, she wasn't speeding", he cut me off and ended the interview. Probably to try and find someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear.
  19. I also think education is the answer, i'll justify by giving an example.

    I have a friend that used to drive everywhere really fast, go out in the rain to handbrake and drift and slide about. Drive onto grassy areas and slide around and the like. What would be called anti-social.

    I didn't do those things my car was more of a show pony versus his cheap and rough rides that he could abuse. But today, he would be more capable of pulling his car out of a slide either accidental or intentional and stopping safely than I, because he has experience and he's done it many times before and i would just be guessing.

    Now with age he has matured and is a much safer driver and rider.
  20. The paper reported the driver who should have been 0.00 was in fact 0.032.

    the driver managed to lose the rear of the vehicle when as it hurtled through the Childs rd intersection, it crossed into the oncoming lane to overtake a car and in doing so placed two of the wheels on the dirt edges and over corrected when the car stepped out.
    The rest is history. Tragic, tragic history.

    A few years ago the 4 local boys that were killed on the Westgate fwy happened just before Christmas, this one a little after new years.

    Certainly a dangerous time to be on the road if you are a young "clown" in a powerful car.

    Condolences to the friends and families, this shit just tears people apart.

    The boys from the WGF accident are buried next to my cousin and I see the parents when I visit my Cousin, still to this day and I suspect until they themselves are buried they will be a pair of very very broken people. It's just a waste of life.

    Take care out there.