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Wheelies, Stoppies and Hoon Laws

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by mjt57, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. In the local rag this week, an item about hoon laws mentioned that motorcyclists were not immune. The copper then went on to say that doing a stoppie or a mono is regarded as "hooning" because the rider failed to maintain traction, etc. with ALL wheels.

    Now, what happens when you have to brake hard to avoid a collision. Some bikes WILL lift the rear wheel in such cases. Do you think that they'd be subjected to the hoon laws if a copper happens to witness the incident?

  2. no you're not subjected because the laws states it applies on deliberately breaking traction
  3. Last time I did an emergency stop I deliberately did a stoppie because I've therefore got the most weight transfered to the front and it's how I can stop the hardest. I'd have been mighty pissed to have my bike impounded for it.
  4. deliberate as in burnouts, donuts etc etc. if they're witnessing an emergency breaking situation they're no 1. unlikely to impound your vehicle. no 2. giving you a pretty good case in court for fining you and failing to fine the other driving for, i don't know how it's worded but it's something funny and tightass sounding like driving in a manner which causes the pilot of another vehicle to take evasive action
  5. I must have forgotten my sarcasm tags.

    There is a serious side to it however - the whole point about laws is that selective enforcement indicates it's a bad law. Going "well, it was an emergency situation" means that there's selective enforcement.

    The driver causing you to take evasive action may be deemed to be "driving without due care and attention" or, if more seriously, "negligent driving". More particular ones can be applied, e.g. failure to give way. However, if you weren't paying attention and had to do an emergency stop...
  6. And cops aren't all that bad.
  7. So the moral of the story is to practise your stoppies in heavy traffic in close proxcimity to car on the road. :grin:
  8. supamodel wrote:
    maybe with christine nixon's new "university trained police" they'll come as VICTORIA POLICE: Now with accuracte selection skills

    Grey areas ruin the point of having road laws. and allow people like me to get away with breaking them
  9. I did a little research on this when I was thinking of making a bit of an outrage thread.

    The laws relate to almost anything that can be considered negligent - racing, burnouts, wheelies, drags, etc.

    You can get fined, but your vehicle is not automatically impounded. It is at discretion whether it is impounded.
    3 impoundings in 6 months [or something like that] and it may be permanently confiscated at judgement of a magistrate.

    IE - if you are essentially a decent person on the road, you might get a fine for the one wrong thing you do [accident/on purpose] while a cop is watching.
    You are only likely to feel the full brunt of 'confiscated vehicle omg!' if you are consistently driving recklessly where you aren't supposed to.

    Where you aren't supposed to = public roads when police are watching, obviously :)

    That said - if I knew my vehicle was going to be confiscated, I'd run... and if I couldn't get away, I'd crash it.
    If I can't have it, they sure as hell can't either.
  10. i call bs on anybody that believes they can stop in a shorter distance on the front wheel vs on both. to initiate an endo, there is more weight transfer to the front; however, once up you need to back off on the brakes. on two wheels, you have engine braking and rear brake working with you. also the front fork will compress naturally. in an endo, your forks actually point backwards once your rear wheel is a few feet off the deck. the force of additional braking will still go towards slowing the bike down, but also to keep lifting the rear wheel. don't get me wrong, i love endos. but in an emergency stop, you would not consciously decide, "i can avoid this accident on one wheel."
  11. That speed camera wouldn't have been able to get my plate if I was on one wheel...
  12. I'll note that, although I didn't say as much, I wasn't suggesting getting the rear up high enough to reverse the trail and thus make the front go all funny-pointy.

    I point you to, say, http://www.msgroup.org/TIP030.html

    You start stopping with both brakes, but yes, by the point you're stopping really. frigging. hard. you're doing a stoppie. I'll also note that 8 years ago, when I did my P's test, I pulled up much faster than people on equal bikes by doing stoppies, when everyone else wasn't doing them. Get the weight transfer started and use some rear brake initially, then once it's bitten just keep hoeing into the brakes, and lo and behold, rear wheel just off the deck for most of the stop.

    Well well,
    They suggest that
    a) Pull the clutch in for an emergency stop - engine braking is useless and actually seems to increase stopping distance
    Perhaps this is due to the fact that even at idle it'll be driving a touch, and it's more effective to use the brakes as brakes. I also note you can lock the rear with the rear brake, you don't need any more effort from engine braking.
    b) Brake with the rear and front, concentrating your effort on the maximum you can do with the front.
    But they do say that the rear is necessary, but didn't test this variable, just say another study confirmed it was necessary. I think it's necessary at the start (and that's how I use it), but I doubt it's necessary on modern bikes to have it used all the way through the stopping.

    N.B. edited to add more clarity and science to this semi off-topic debate. I still stand that the laws, as written, tend to allow too much for selective enforcement, because I can deliberately lose traction with one in an emergency situation. Enforce laws equally or not at all.
  13. I think that it is a bit strange that a person can have their vehicle confiscated if they are deemed to be 'hooning' even if they do not do any damage or break any other laws. However someone can repeatedly drink drive, speed, crash and mame people and keep their car.

    Don't get me wrong about hooning laws, there does need to be something, however we should look at something for repeat offenders.

    In NZ if you are caught driving whilst disqualified, you walk home.
  14. If you think you can stop quicker by doing a stopping, then you can by keeping the maxing footprint on the ground and using both brakes then you my friend are deluded!!
  15. So I guess that all the racers that, midway through their stopping hard for a corner and they have the rear wheel up in the air are just doing it to show off to their rivals. Or, perhaps, in the middle point of braking they brake the hardest by having the rear wheel just up in the air.
    Read the study & the other thing I linked to. Or is that hard? I actually went out of my way to google something and look for something scientific.

    They never tested front wheel only, never did I also say it was front wheel only for the whole stop. They also never said that at some point they had the rear wheel up in the air, but I'll fcuking bet it was, esp. on the fireblade. You start with both brakes (more on the front) and then increase the front braking to it's maximum, which will serve to decrease the effort you can apply at the back. Once into the stop and stopping hard, lots of bikes will lift their rear wheel slightly - look for pictures of Rossi etc to see what I mean about the lofting. The only reason the racers will put the rear down is so they can actually turn. But, if you're stopping in a straight line and it's all you have to do, then yes, I think you will stop faster if you have the rear wheel off the deck.

    Then again, I guess you stop faster if you have the rear wheel skipping and you lock it up and highside it. You might not hit that car that pulled out on top of you. Or, alternatively, you can not bother to attain the maximum braking at the front for fear of not being able to brake with both wheels.

    Me, I'll keep stopping as hard as possible at the front and using as much rear as practicable. I've found the rear's not doing anything by the time I'm pretty much hoing into the front, so I don't bother... It's also been a long time since I hit anything, last time I did hit something (5 years ago, car gunning it out of a side street and then stopping in my lane - he pulled out when I had less than 15m to his position, shoulda accelerated more) and didn't manage to pull up there was no room, even a fcuking parachute wouldn't have stopped me.
  16. I disagree, most of the hard braking i've seen, especially in motoGP, will see the back end drifting out, and if you watch closely they often 'slide' into the corner. Capirossi and hayden are two who spring to mind who do it alot.

    Infact i've rarely seen the back end loft more then a few centimetres at most off the ground in the GP of recent years.
  17. At which point the front is doing all the work, which is kinda my point. I'm not suggesting doing 4' high rolling stoppies either. Once the rear wheel is not in contact with the deck at all it's as useless as a chocolate penis, good for amusement and there for looks but that's it. In fact, once the rear is only lightly in contact I propose it's not doing a hell of a lot anyway.
    That's all my point is, anyway.

    It depends on the bike. Trail bikes, or cruisers, or sport-touring bikes, or learners bikes will definately require a lot more work to do a stoppie(1), which indicates that's not the best way to be stopping it. Something with a short wheelbase, big powerful front brakes and suspension geometries such that they don't have a heap of trail to begin with are going to naturally pop the back up when stopping hard, and thus you should just go with the flow, rather going oh "oo, back wheel in the air, time for more rear brake and less front!".

    If the front isn't locked, you're not braking at it's maximum.

    (1) I'm not saying they can't, with the exception of some cruisers. But sportsbikes will get the back wheel a couple of inches in the air without much provocation; other bikes tend to make this a lot harder. And, I've ridden and owned a lot of these bikes I have listed, and, well, braking style is definately not something that you get to do one way and apply equally to every bike. That's my other point.
  18. The new "Vehicle Impoundment Legislation" is not soley for "hoons" as we know them but also repeat offenders relating to Drink Driving and Suspended / Disqualified Drivers and Excessive Speed. The key word here is REPEAT !!!

    I couldn't imagine a situation where a copper witnesses you almost collide with another vehicle (especially if it wasn't your fault) and book you for having your rear wheel in the air. It just wouldn't happen.
  19. My accident in 2002. No, didn't want to impound it, but reckoned that doing a stoppie whilst attempting to avoid a vehicle which had failed to give way to me and then stopped wholly in my lane was negligent driving. They wrote it out as a warning for that charge; the other driver (deemed 100% at fault for purposes of insurance) received nothing. At this stage, I was 20, but a week off going from my provisional to full licence.

    The whole point I have is that it shows selective enforcement of the law, so it's either worded badly or badly implemented.
  20. Yes, I agree with you to a point, Badly worded -v- Badly Implemented...maybe.

    Remember, this legislation has only been in Victoria since July of this year and not many police have been trained in using it. (By the way, until trained in the use / legislation and powers etc,. the police arn't allowed to use it)
    The reason there's different outcomes for similar incidents is because in Victoria anyway, the police have (and excercise) discretion.

    I think you may have proved my point in relation to your near miss. You didn't recieve a fine (?)