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What is integration?

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by Roaster, Aug 13, 2009.

  1. I just caught this quote in SMH:

    Got me thinking - is integration about coming to a country with old habits and customs and shaking none off, or is it more of a "when in rome" attitude?

    I just thought it was a little contradictory that Aheda Zanetti accused the french government of not wanting muslims to integrate, when there is an implicit refusal on her part to adopt local standards of dress.

    I think that it is a compromise which can be found somewhere in the middle of "when in rome" and the retention of custom and culture. But it begs the question, is the burquini a symbol of integration or segregation?

    I find the proposed ban on all forms of muslim dress particularly interesting after hearing reports of women being arrested in the sudan for wearing jeans and tourists in Gaza .

    What are your thoughts on what "integration" really means?
  2. This is integration.
  3. I can see how you derived that conclusion but you must differentiate between maths and culture.
  4. The former is (more or less) integration.

    In this sense integration is to bring your culture and then incorporate that into another societies, with no loss to your own. Meaning, that you can continue your own cultural ways, but can also adopt from the culture you are joining. This does become a bit of an issue where the two societies disagree on one point or another.

    The latter is assimilation, meaning to discard your old culture in favour of the new one. Was part of the foreign policy in Australia for a while in the 40's I believe.

    Year 10 Aust. History, go.
  5. Another mathematical term (differentiation)......

    To quote you, I think integration is "I think that it is a compromise which can be found somewhere in the middle of 'when in rome' and the retention of custom and culture." That means that some people wear specific items of clothing. My only issue with the ninja clothing is if it impairs their vision whilst driving. Otherwise, they're not imposing their clothing upon anyone so let them be.
  6. I say you need to adapt to the customs of the country you are living in.

    eg: If I was to go to Egypt then common sense says that it is respectful for me to cover up as that is the local custom for women. I wouldnt have to do that if I went to France though.

    Now I understand that the islamic religion dictates that women need to stay covered - ok fair enough BUT the fact that they are living in a non islamic country means that she has to respect the fact that they do not have religious restrictions on dress code and therefore the country as a whole does not have to change its way of living to suit a minority.

    That being said sure, wear a burquini if you like but you cant cry foul because others may look at you strangely - it is not part of the local custom in France. Provided they dont ban her from wearing it at all then I dont see that it is discrimination.

    From a personal view, my parents told me that when they moved to Australia they made a point of learning the language and doing what they could to become a part of Australian society in public while still honouring their heritage at home.
  7. :WStupid:
  8. What you are seeing is a country refusing to cut Islamic practice any slack, because Islamic practice includes:

    - violence and segregation against women.
    - capital punishment.
    - inability to take a joke.

    It also includes, when there are enough of them, demanding these things be allowed them (ala special treatment), and crying racism and persecution when someone tells them "Well, no, that's not the way we like to do things around here."

    Europe has seen how things went in Denmark: a country held to ransom by half a million violent people who can't get over a freaking cartoon, and they're going "Hmmm, well, we better not let them think they can try that sort of shit here."

    So if Muslims feel persecuted or hard done by, or that the small freedoms that they probably should be entitled to are being witheld out of prejudice... they're probably right, and it's their own fault for allowing idiocy and violence within their ranks.

    Even the Hell's Angels in Denmark are fed up with young muslim men, who have a sense of perceived persecution, and a well nurtured attitude of delinquency. They call them "jackals", and have pledged to not be nice to them...
  9. Indeed. I will concede that occasionally it does seem that certain members of the Islamic community cannot quite grasp the concept of "multiculturalism" (please note I'm not singling Islam out as the main offender, but is a case in point)

    It means you are free to practice your beliefs and culture without prosecution peacefully, and along side people of other cultures races, religions, ethnicities etc

    I also believe that any and all cultural and religious practices should be allowed as long as they do not breach the laws of the country. If beating on women and capitol punishment is part of your culture and you want to practice it, fine by me. Just don't do it in this country where its illegal, or if you do don't cry foul when people tell you to stop.

    What it most certainly does NOT mean is that you can migrate to another country, break the rules on the grounds that its your culture, lobby to ban other people from doing things they were doing before you got here just because they offend you and then cry foul when those very people do the same thing to you.

    That may sound harsh and make me seem like a racist cockbag, but I'm not, this whole topic just shits me sometimes.

  10. ...Fitting in!!..... :roll:
  11. #11 Bonk, Aug 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Have you watched any of Pat Condell's videos on YouTube?

    This one's relevant [media=youtube]G4FpTvp0tgs[/media]
  12. Not until now.

    God, this guy plays hardball, but he makes a few valid points.

    I think the most amusing part is how he dumps on the left wing liberals.
  13. Re the vid...

    The only problem when people make such impassioned rants is that they can end up being just as stubborn and one-eyed as those whose views they don't agree with.

    I agree with some points in there too, but I do feel there is a level of unwillingness to be open to others there. Like Richard Dawkins - though I might agree with the viewpoint, he is only preaching to the choir. The chance of that being used in any reasonable, open discussion on the subject is zero. It's a pure us vs them attitude that isn't necessarily going to help anyone's point of view.

    Whether it be this Pat Condell, or Richard Dawkins, I believe it means that reasonable people who hold a similar point of view would dissociate themselves from the more extreme rants. I am a card carrying atheist, but believe there is a level of respect and open-minded needed when discussing these issues and it's possible to hold these opinions and not be closed off to a geniune debate regarding finding a solution.
  14. I too got this impression. I mean, some of his views were valid, others were borderline extremist.
  15. Wow. Pat. Wow. I feel like I SHOULD disagree but he does indeed make some very interesting points.

    As far as the left wing liberals go, I think he may also have a point there. I don't interpret him as saying "right is good, left is bad" because he was fairly damning of the BNP, but he does have a point about political correctness sometimes going beyond reason (not those words, but that was how i understood his sentiment).
  16. Come to Melbourne. We may have our problems, but we are a helluva lot better at 'integration" than you lot in Sydney are.

    Second thought... stay were you are. :wink:
  17. That works on several levels :LOL:
  18. Not at all, it's a very valid point, and not racist in any sense of the word.
    And funnily enough, I have as little time for the far left (Tree Huggers, PETA and Abo apologists) as I do the far right (Little Johnny, Andrew Bolt, any Church, et al.) Guess that makes me middle?
  19. Nope. Just makes you not a loony.
  20. Thanks :)