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[VICPOL] Statistical lies

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by Chef, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. Taken from this post https://netrider.net.au/forums/showpost.php?p=2036581&postcount=1

    Taken from this thread

    I recently had the opportunity to speak with someone about this accident the other day (they are a rock solid source so don't ask) and there are some things about this one in particular that I wish to bring to your attention.

    It turns out that the 'rider' wasn't a rider at all. By the account given to me it was a man who at this stage was allegedly (I haven't seen a coroners report) chemically impaired, well let's call a spade a spade he was stoned.

    He wasn't on a motorcycle by any rider's definition he was on a pocket bike without motorcycle gear on (that's a key indicator he isn't a rider)

    He rode across the path of the oncoming vehicle without warning causing the head on collision. The ute left the road and flipped upside down trapping the driver and his baby he had onboard. Thankfully the baby wasn't injured although the driver received minor cuts and abrasions.
    My heart goes out to the driver as I'd hate to be upside down in a vehicle with my child in there with me. enough said.

    Now what i don't know is whether this 'rider' holds or ever held a motorcycle license, and quite frankly it's beside the point. There is absolutely no connection between this guy and motorcycle riding, and I'm insulted to find him being included in our statistics.

    You've got a problem Vicroads/Vicpol, a very big problem that needs to come to an end.

    I've also had the chance to speak with one of your frontline about what constitutes a 'motorcycle'. He's taken the time to study the varying definitions as laid out in the legislation so he knows when the law's being broken. He tried to explain the differences between motorcycle, scooter, and moped, and he struggled to make sense of it and explain it.

    Vicpol/Vicroads you've got a f.ucking cheek telling riders they're accountable for their part in the roadtoll when you wankers wont be held accountable for your statistics you use against us. You've been called on it enough times now, anti up or f.uck off.
  2. Good stuff Chefie
  3. good post Chef..

    The pocket bike thing shits me... we have several of them that ride on the wrong side of the road, on footpaths, with no gear at all on and I'M damn sure they are louder than my sportsbike.

    They have been doing this for every weekend for about the last 6 weeks and not once have the police attended to give it to them and remove them from the streets even when called.
  4. + 1. Spot on Chef.
  5. Good post Chef. What we need is people who can articulate those thoughts publicly, who won't get side tracked or taken down a particular path and who can deliver the message that motorcycling isn't per se a dangerous activity that requires further regulation.
  6. Something else about the statistics - how many of the fatalities are a deliberate breach of the existing laws that would have been prevented otherwise (i.e. double white lines etc)? Only reason I ask, is that if there is a significant proportion of riders ignoring the rules resulting in fatalities, then further regulation isn't going to do anything... (I know that sounded a bit negative - but its a question to do with the stats more than anything).

    Only education and training will...

    I'd love to know how many accidents happen within the rules. Also, I'd like to know how many accidents happen within 10-15% of the posted speed limit, where speeding was the primary, or a significant factor... I'd like to know that for all accidents actually.

    That is to say, if someone falls asleep and hits a tree, then speeding wouldnt be the precipitating factor, falling asleep would be. But as we have seen with the stats, such accidents almost certainly are blamed on speed.
  7. See -it's about at this point where we loose total credibility with the general public. You can trot out all the statistics under the sun to prove otherwise, but motorcycling IS DANGEROUS. No if's, but's or maybe's. Blind Freddy can see that the chance of personal body harm HAS to be higher if you fall off your bike -as opposed to a bit of a bingle in your car. Trying to prove otherwise to the average Joe is totally pointless. We're flogging a dead horse. Simply making ourselves look deluded and plain stupid.
    So what is the answer you ask? I don't know. But here's something to ponder. We admit that riding is dangerous. Not try and keep pushing the spiel that motorcycling is slightly less dangerous than patting a fluffy white lamb at a petting farm. That alone should scare off the non enthusiasts. Maybe even dropping the number of accidents. Win win.
    Next, disband all forms of rider representation. Sorry, but all I can see is a huge target for the anti motorcycling agenda to aim at. Think terrorism.
    Ooops -my wife is calling me for dinner. Can't finish right now. I shall return.
  8. +1... Great work investigative work Chef.
  9. There was a home made dune buggy flipped not far from here several years ago that the roll cage collapse and killed the driver, wasn't registered but was on public land illegally so was counted in the road toll.

    Same goes with trail bike incidents on public land or parks whether they're registered or not.

    Monkey/Pit/Pocket/whatever you call them bikes have two wheels so are classified as motorcycles strangely enough.

    The crash was on the road and involved a registered vehicle so well and truly qualifies to be included in the "road toll".
  10. And this is where we differ. Riding a motorbike isn't dangerous. Driving a car isn't dangerous. However, the risk of serious injury on a bike as opposed to a car is significantly higher. Avoid the accident and you avoid the injury.
  11. What categories exist for the road toll tally?
  12. Awww come on Cejay. What you're saying in effect, is that jumping off a tall building is not dangerous. But smashing into mother earth is the dangerous bit. Trotting out these type of arguments makes us no better than the pollies/coppers skewing the statistics to suit themselves.
    Yeah, I know. Bad analogy but that's how Joe public sees it.
  13. I have said it before (or wrote it more likely).. Vic roads, TAC, Vicpol etc... The Victorian government has an agenda.. ZERO road fatalities... Do a Google search for "Vision Zero"..

    One of the ways they will achieve this (they do not discuss this openly) is to reduce the number of motorcyclists on the Victorian roads.. There are currently in place strategies to do exactly that. The current "safety" adds on TV were designed to scare potential new riders and the registration costs of motorcycles has gone up, are the two most apparent.
  14. At least in the city, where parking is free for the most part and transport costs going up, I can't see motorcycles going away anytime soon.

    Unless if they blatantly price them out of the market - and then their agenda becomes obvious.
  15. Yep, the way Melbourne is going, motorcycles are fast becoming the only viable commuting option for a lot of people.

    Public transport too distant and/or ludicrously slow.
    Car requires parking that is seemingly evaporating, cost more to run and have to go with the ever slowing flow of traffic.
    Bicycle simply too hard for too many given the distances a lot of people have to travel.

    I can really see Melbourne hitting a tipping point in a few years where motorcycles and scooters truly explode in popularity as the alternatives finally become too crowded, too slow, too expensive etc. for people to ignore the advantages.
  16. I live very close to CBD - and every morning at ever set of lights you see 2 or more bikes a light change filter to the front of lights... You can imagine someone sitting in their car pondering...
  17. Parking costs are exhorbitant in some areas... how's $80 for <4 hrs... there was a country couple on the radio bitching about it - they had to go to one of the major hospitals and parked nearby.

    Anyway, a monkey bike with an unlicensed rider hardly counts for a statistically meaningful addition to the motorcycling road toll. Thanks for the clarification Cheffie.
  18. All good work, but it raises an important question - how does this actually help motorcyclists? I am trying to think of a practical application, but one escapes me.

    Picture this, you are at a major press conference, or similar, presented by a senior figure in the Department of Transport, TAC or Police. The presenter brings up the unacceptably high number of rider fatalities over the last twelve months, and that riders need to slow down/ride more sensibly/will face increased enforcement measures. You spring up with your Gotcha! at hand, and point out to all present that the statistics are all wrong, one of those fatalities didn't happen on a real motorcycle, it happened on a pocket bike.

    To me the most likely reaction will be the presenter pointing out that a pocket bike, despite its small stature, is still a two wheeled motorised vehicle, thus still included in the same statistical group as other two wheeled motorised vehicles (motorcycles, scooters, mopeds, etc) and the unfortunate rider is still a fatality, and as the death occurred on a public road (or certain other public places) it is still included in the death toll. The presenter could probably surmise this position by retorting "And...?".

    A very distant second would be "In that case, the current number of rider fatalities - 1 is an unacceptably high number..." and so on.

    In any event, I do not see any official, presented with this revelation, breaking down in tears and confessing that it is all part of a conspiracy to destroy riding.

    I suppose my point is that if we are going to continue to try to tear down (or, more frequently, tear into) the powers-that-be by picking on incredibly tenuous pedantic points, they will continue to have an easy time claiming that we "simply don't get it". The ‘public perception’ will be that we are simply arrogant, or there is no counter-argument to the dangerous-to-self-and-others tag (and therefore, it must be true).
  19. I park my car in the CBD daily and it costs between $11 - $15 depending on the car park.

    It's only a matter of arriving prior to 9:30am and not wanting to leave til after 2-4pm. You've got to love Early Bird parking rates.

    Mind you I can park in the CBD for 5 days for less than it costs to park in the Long Term car park at the airport for a weekend........
  20. The problem with vision zero is that it is incredibly unrealistic.

    The thing with goals, is that to make progress to achieving them, they need to be realistic. The only way you will achieve vision zero is to limit everyone to horse and cart (although even that will have fatalities).

    Having real, reasonable and achievable targets would be a good start... Then getting the statistics right. For statistics to be useful for assessing how to improve, they need to be accurate and not pushed by various agendas...