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(VIC) Scooters in bike lanes

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by nathanshnoz, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. Hey all,

    Was listening to 774 ABC Melbourne this morning and they were discussing how some dude (not sure who) or some place (not sure where) is proposing to allow scooters to travel in bicycle lanes in certain circumstances. As you can see I'm an expert on the subject already :p (i think he was from somewhere kinda like TAC but not TAC but someone of reasonable standing who could initiate this into becoming a law)

    It was a very interesting discussion with people calling up from both sides and voicing their opinions. Bicyclists are outraged, of course. But scooter riders seem to think it will be the 'bees knees'. As a motorcycle rider i found it pretty silly. Where do you stop? Can they ride on footpaths too? The state of Victoria recently (3 years ago i think) banned the use of 'pocket bikes' and small motorized scooters (49cc) on footpaths and now they are proposing to bring in a similar law with regards to bicycle lanes. I can only assume that they will have to put a engine size (cc) limit on the scooters allowed in these lanes, if it did pass legislation, but as to how they would police this i have no idea. Seems a bit unfair that a scooter rider on say, a 100cc scooter would be allowed in but a new learner rider on a rather un-powerful 125 or 250cc motorcycle learning to ride, who is just as much of a 'danger' to other road users would not. It was very interesting hearing different opinions of scooter riders, bicyclists and also a few motorcyclists on the proposed changes to the legislation. What do all you guys think about it? One bloke rang up and proposed that all bicyclists who plan on riding on the road should have to 'register' their bike for a small processing fee only so that they can be policed, issued fines for speeding or breaking the road rules just the same as any other road user, as we all see them often breaking the road rules and they seem to think the rules do not apply to them. I thought this was a bloody good idea actually. Just yesterday i had to go around cyclists going 3 wide around a corner! if i was in the cage there would have probably been an accident of some sort (thankfully on the bike i could just zip up past them :) )

    End of rant and attempt to be informative and start an interesting discussion :p

    *takes deep breath*
  2. the cyclists dont pay road tax for their cycle and still have an exclusive lane for them.
    True, these kinda exemptions encourage the public to use bicycles, reducing the pollution levels...but then there should be ways of monitoring them too.

    Most of the cyclists I have seen, never follow any traffic rules...and spclly those Tour De France wannabes, they expect every cyclist in the lane to be paddling at full speed....and get rude if they even have an elderly person infront of them riding slowly.

    The bicycle lane should stay exclusive for the bicyclists, it has many positive impacts, but then again, they should be monitored atleast by getting their cycles registered and carrying an ID with which they can be identified anytime.
  3. See a lot of scooter riders using them anyway, hard to police. Why not allow filtering and boxes for us at lights, more useful and does not piss off tredly riders.IMO
  4. cyclists have advanced boxes, in front of the left lane in a number of intersections(2 lanes each way) around the city. Why you would slow down The faster moving powered vehicles? That astounds me, to be truthfull. I believe you can use a bike lane for no more than 50m if your parking or going around a corner. I would love for them to allow (the 50m)us to use them to advance into a advance box for motorcyclists.
  5. One step at a time IMHO. The advance boxes should be our first goal.

    BTW, I think powered two wheelers under 200W can use bike lanes now in Vic(?)
  6. The problem here is that, in general, humans don't seem to respect or be courteous to anything on the road that is a number of orders smaller than their vehicle, because it is quite incapable of causing them damage or harm. However, their vehicle can probably inflict an instantaneous killing blow to the person on the vehicle a number of orders smaller.

    This applies to the relationship between urban assault vehicles (4WDs) and hatchbacks, cars and motorcycles, and motorcycles and cyclists.

    I've seen plenty of motorcyclists barge their way down bike lanes with cyclists in them instead of splitting between cars at the lights; overtake cyclists and then promptly do a left hander in front of them; and generally ride in a manner showing complete disregard for the precariousness of riding a bicycle on the road.

    Cyclists need to retain a privileged position on the roads. They have been banned from using footpaths, are subjected to all the pollution and smog us petroleum burners cause, and rip up a poofteenth of the tarmac that 200-300kg motorcyclists and 1000-2000kg cars do. Arguing they should be taxed or forced to register is tantamount to saying “well we’ve been buggered up the backside, why shouldn’t you be too?†while forgetting that unlike us, the social benefit of their form of transportation far exceeds the social cost. If everyone rode a bicycle where they could substitute it for a petroleum burner, we would be a petroleum exporting rather than importing country, and the obesity crisis would disappear.

    Scooter-riders on the other hand just plain piss me off. They want all the benefits of a bicyclist while accepting none of the responsibilities of riding a motorcycle. They want to use bicycle lanes and every other paved surface known to man, dart in and out of traffic in an accident inducing manner, dress like they are immortal and ask other TAC premium payers to cover their full reconstructive surgery bills, and probably couldn’t coordinate the clutch and gearshift on a motorcycle even if their life depended on it.

    +1 to that. Car drivers should stay out of motorcyclists’ way, motorcyclists should stay out of bike lanes, and scooter-riders should stay off the road. End rant.
  7. I was born in Romania where cyclists can ride on the footpath. More importantly the entire country is the size of Victoria and has a population of 21 million people. So when i came here i was amazed to see that there were so few people, yet cyclist aren't allowed to use foot paths.

    To be honest, i wouldn't want a tour de france wannabee behind me on a footpath, but im really getting sick of these health freaks taking up an entire lane. The thing that really shits me is even when there is a bike path, these cyclists never use it, preferring to go on the 'real' road.

    My solution, normal RELAXED people can ride on the road, lycra clad road cyclists ride on the road and pay the cost of installing rego plates AND indcators + brake lights.

    On a unrelated matter. Why aren't quad bikes road legal?
  8. Are you kidding me?!! As if this country isn't regulated enough! Cycling is the only remaining form of transport where I don't need to pay for a licence, rego, and compulsory third party insurance. It provides cheap transport to the financially disadvantaged. What will they regulate next? Walking? :shock:

    No idea. Maybe you haven't seen one which someone has gone to the trouble of making road legal (blinkers, brake and head lights, number plates, registration, compulsory third party insurance, etc). I mean, you can make trikes road legal, and quads just have an extra wheel.

    Or maybe all four wheeled vehicles are required to meet Australian crash and safety standards, and making them compliant would evidently be financially unviable (would prolly require a roll-bar for starters).
  9. I would think it would have something to do with the cornering abilities, but I honestly do not know. It could also be something to do with the other four wheeled contraptions on the road and being totally different to them.

    Romania sounds dangerous. That damn little ding ding bell on bikes is annoying at the best of times.
  10. I've seen a cop here on a registered quad bike!! I was like wtf??? Some sort of special rego i'm sure for chasing dirt bikers (great use of police resources :roll: )

    I dont think scooters/bikes should be able to use bicycle lanes full time, but at traffic light intersections I see no problem with it at all, considering around here I've never encountered a cyclist in the cycle lane at any intersection (ours are so wide anyway you could fit a bike and a cycle side-by-side)
  11. I don't think scooters should use cycle tracks for the same reason that I don't ride on the very far left of my lane.

    If a little kid runs out into the road, even a little way, then you're more likely to not be able to avoid them.

    I've been car-doored on my pushbike...which wasn't pleasant.

    Now had i been on my cbr i may have had the enjoyment of smashing his door off, which would be kind of fun come to think about it... ;) but it would still have been a deeply unpleasant situation all round.

    We need the width of the road to have a safety buffer is what i'm getting at. (although splitting is a another matter...)

    If scooters were allowed then how long before everyone does it? 'me-too-ism' would be stronger than the dark side...no one would resist.

    Enough city-bound, fair-weather scooter riders are idiots without encouraging them.

    ...and yes, i'm a ATGATT sportsbike rider who glowers at absolutely everyone ;)
  12. yep reminds me of rules of sail vs motor boats....as for using bike lanes, well why the fark should a group that doesn't pay have such influence over something they contribute nothing towards :evil:
  13. OK. Great argument there....oh hang on. I've got a bike and a car and pay rego and fuel taxes on both. I've also got a MTB that I sometimes ride on the road. You want me to pay rego for that too? Why? Because a small part of a lane on a road has been designated as car/motorbike free?

    Tell you what, with that logic, get rid of footpaths. They're taking up valuable space that could be used by cars. Those silly people who walk places can still get about, just take their chances on the roads.
  14. nope i agree footpaths should be designed/shared for both people and push bikes etc thats part of society....or the other option is divide the lane into 2, both bikes and pushbikes don't require the same width as a car.....

    also cj if we can't fund/build roads without having tolls why should you be looking after another minor group who pay nothing towards it......sounds to me like my argurement against tolls!!!

    Why should i have to pay to use tolls roads?
  15. This argument about whether cyclists should be registered to ride on the road:
    - cycles do not contribute significantly to road degradation. Then again, very little of a motorists registration fee goes toward road upkeep. A largely irrelevant point.
    - Cyclists can and do cause road congestion, even if they themselves are not the ones delayed. Sometimes they do it deliberately, sometimes simply because of the nature of the machine. With more and more road space being given to cycles every day, the problem is going to get worse (for non-cyclists).
    - cyclists can and do cause road trauma - mainly to themselves. Gee, does that sound familiar? Funny that motorcyclists are charged extra for being victims while cyclists are exempted from paying (money) for any of the consequences of their indiscretions.

    I'm not calling for a charge on cyclists. Even though there is an arguable case for it. I would love to see some kind of identification system though.

    Whether I like it or not, I suppose I would have to agree that there is a natural conflict between m/cycles and bicycles, but only because of the speed disparity. cycles co-exist with much heavier vehicles in closer proximity all the time. If motorcycles accepted a low speed limit in return for access to cycle lanes, I do not believe any other real-world conflict remains...

    .... except for the fact that many cyclists just naturally seem to want to disadvantage any other form of transport, especially powered ones.

    For my part, I would change the law to this extent: that any powered two wheeler be given the right (that cyclists already have) to pass traffic on the left. If that was coupled to a speed limit of say, 25 or 30 in designated cycle lanes, I would wear that. Advance boxes would be ours, too.

    That's it. Nobody is further endangered. Nobody is further inconvenienced.
  16. So your solution to a cycle lane (which is typically no more than 1m wide) is to have bikes share the footpath with pedestrians, all of which are moving at a much slower rate than the bike. Pedestrians have a right to not be knocked over or sent flying by bikes too.

    I don't get the angst against the pushbike rider. Your argument is based on the fact that cyclists don't contribute. Yet I am a rider and a driver, pay two lots of taxes. Therefore I DO contribute. Perhaps I should have double lane space?

    The other relevant point is the idea that taxes are neatly segmented into nice parcels that are spent solely for that purpose (which is incorrect).

    The only element of your road based taxes that are used to fund infrastructure is the excise on fuel. On the basis that those who contribute more are more worthy, then anyone who drives a hybrid should be banned. Big trucks should have precedence. Small, efficient bikes should only be allowed a small part of the road (and then only on even days).

    Aside from all of that, if you really think that cyclists want to share the road with cars and bikes, you're mistaken. It is however the lesser of two evils.
  17. 30km/hr? ok i haven't ridden my bike since i moved back from qld (3 years ago) but i use to average over 30 to and from work on my pushy... so do you then allow cyclists to travel at whatever speed or make them all run speedo? :LOL:
  18. i did it for 3 years from one side of brissy to the other np. so i would say no i had no problem sharing the road with other traffic, yes it required my to make my pushy fit into the road network, i set my pushy up with a mirror that allow me to view what was happening from behind and had very few near misses......then again i ride a motorcycle the same carefully in all sorts of traffic.

    well isn't that maybe just a case of the rider being a little more careful, Pedestrians think about their actions etc before just moving, it's not very often i even when walking i won't check before crossing paths etc.........

    Next you going to agree that it's the drivers fault for hitting someone crossing the road because they step out into on coming traffic......the road/footpath require some thought,attention.....want to sleep walk stay at home!!
  19. Whatever. I just don't see any rational argument from you other than 'I used to do it'.
  20. 30, 40 whatever. The point is that IF motorcyclists are to use cycle lanes (and as vulnerable road users I personally believe we should also be allowed to), it should be at a speed that presents no serious threat or intimidation to cyclists.
    Realistically, motorcycles are not going to travel extended distances in bike lanes by choice. It's only to get around immobile four wheelers and get to some clear space. That's why I couched it in terms of the cyclists' right to pass on the left using the cycle lane to do so.