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[VIC] Riders Pay while Bicycles get another $70 Mill

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by jdkarmch, May 14, 2006.

  1. http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...more-cold-calls/2006/05/13/1146940775855.html

    And yet again mpotorcycles/scooters - the "other half of the two wheeled community" won't be included.

    By my calcualtions motorcycles outnumber bicycles by about 10:1 in the melb CBD these days. I have lost count of the number of scooters getting around. I also note that there are 10 times as many people riding their motorcycles to work each day compared to the same time few years ago.

    A bicycle is great if you live in the inner suburbs, but not much good if you commute from way out east or west of the CBD......

    You would think that based on the above figures that they would have include the other half of the two wheel community in their equation.

    But, I guess that as we haven't actually made the effort to do a census of "our numbers' - which is what the bicycle riders did to convince the Vic Govt to throw millions at them - then we only have ourselves to blame :(

    According to the VACC 1 in 10 (10%) of all New Rigistrations in Vic is a motorcycle/scooter. That will translate into a lot of motorcycles on the roads by around 2015. I wonder if there are any votes there......

    Is it time for another Congestion Awareness Ride - from Multiple locations this time perhaps?

    Census Time? If you work in the CBD - let me know how many motorcycles/scooters/bicycles are parked in your area - and I will start a map to record where and exactly how many and of what type we are talking about.
  2. MRAA Media Release 15 May 2006

    Governments Transport Plans have lost the plot

    The President of the Motorcycle Riders Association of Australia, Mr Dale Maggs, today expressed disappointment at the Victorian Government’s recently released transport and road safety plans.

    Mr Maggs stated that the government had lost the plot and passed up the opportunity to promote a real alternative to cars. He stated that, as usual, the most efficient and effective form of road transport has been totally ignored.

    Studies have shown that the only commuters really satisfied with their form of commuting are motorcycle and scooter riders. While bicycles are being promoted as an alternative, they are simply not and cannot provide the mobility for commuting quickly over longer distances.

    More and more Victorians are turning to scooters and motorcycles as their primary commuting transport. The handling and braking of modern scooters in particular is very good and the carrying capacity makes them suitable for most shopping trips.

    The Government needs to look closely at these vehicles as car replacements. During the recent congestion nightmare on the Monash Freeway, the only vehicles that could move freely were motorcycles and scooters. The MRAA again calls on the Government to do the following:

    • Immediately introduce a Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme along the lines of NSW, the ACT and SA;
    • Review the ludicrously high licensing age for riders (currently the highest in Australia and one of the highest in the world);
    • Investigate permitting use of scooters up to 50cc on existing full drivers licences;
    • Explicitly permit filtering through stationary or slow moving traffic;
    • Permit shared use of on-road bicycle lanes by motorcycles and scooters (with certain limitations); and
    • In consultation with riders, develop a sound and sensible motorcycle strategy.

    The safety strategy again shows up the total unfairness of motorcyclists being the only road users to pay an additional levy. If $72 million can be found for bicycle paths, then surely the few millions raised by the levy could be funded by Government rather than being stolen from motorcyclists. The MRAA again calls on the Government to withdraw this levy and to treat powered two vehicles fairly and reasonably.

    For further information please contact MRAA President Mr Dale Maggs on 0432 776 458.

    or lanesplitting@mraa.org.au
  3. I'll wait until i get 'cold called' by the Gov't trying to promote public transport. I'll tell them I've got an alternative that it cheaper and faster than a car and is cheaper and faster than than PT. I'll let them guess what it is.....

    But then I also have a pushie and pedla to work about 50% of the time, so i don't mind them spending more on pushbike infrastructure, it makes up for not getting any value for money out of my $50 levy.
  4. Good to see the MRAA keeping the pressure on.

    The hypocracy in not allowing powered two-wheelers to use bicycle lanes with a speed limit is astounding. It seems the old adage 'it's unsafe because it's illegal' seems to be rife in the government at the moment. If the government thought outside the square when it comes to lane filtering, they would find an equally good solution without any infrastructure cost - pretty good for road users who actually pay their way.

    Transport legislation bodies are always harping on about 'reform', which is no longer about analysing laws to assess their relevance and viability, but instead to make things illegal wherever possible.
  5. As I previosly said, that recommendation all sounds good apart from the share bicycle lane part. Way too dangerous and would never be policed.
  6. Interesting opinion... why do you think it's dangerous? I've ridden on a bicycle and a motorcycle up these lanes (at similar low speeds), and can't really tell the difference.

    Is it the engine? I've seen mopeds (bicycles with engines) use those lanes and they do just fine.

    I reckon the real danger with bike lanes (which is present for both bicycles and motorcycles is people turning left on you, and cars crossing through stopped traffic.

    If anything motorcycles are safer in these situations as they are more visible due to being higher and having a headlight/loud exhaust.
  7. Too dangerous for the cyclist not the motorcyclist. They have no speed expectations, your daughter could potentially be riding on a bicycle lane with her friends at 10kmh, with no rear vision, MP3 player in her ears, and have a guy on a 300kg+ bike riding towards her at 4 times her speed without knowing. How does he overtake? Many bicycle lanes aren't wide enough in the instance, so the motorbike rider is going to either be moving back into regular traffic or passing the cyclist dangerously close. While it may seem safer for the motorcyclist to be in this lane, all it does is introduce another hazard to deal with, and a slow moving one at that, and take a relatively safe environment for cyclists and introduce the threat of motorised vehicles again (which the bicycle lane was originally designed to eliminate).
  8. What an absolute load of crap. And where and when has this ever happened?

    I have ridden my bike through areas packed with people and never come anywhere near hitting anyone. Its because we have "excellent all round vision" and we can see just as much as a pedestrian - that we don't run over pedestrians when we ride through crowds or on paths etc.

    We all have two wheels - size and weight has nothing to do with it.

    Again - we think we know the answer. But, where is the evidence????

    Or do we really want to keep shooting ourselves in the foot with silly (cage driver based) arguments like this......
  9. agreed, and there is also the problem of motorbikes moving into the pushy lane without looking properly first (no car ever does and i've only seen bikes do it a couple of times). if i'm sitting on a good 40kph and your stopped, i'm gunna be in a world of hurt if i dont see you pull into the bike lane to overtake the cars. i've had a close call before and wasn't too impressed, also been followed and beeped at befer and was even less impressed :evil:

    i dont really have a problem with motorbikes hitting the bicycle lanes in general, provided they're unoccupied and the rider LOOKS first. but i dont really think it would be wise to make it legal and increase the amount of ppls doing it.
  10. If she's riding like that then she's a danger to herself.
    Because you're on a bicycle doesn't excuse you for not being aware of your surroundings.

    The point is you don't overtake and cyclists have right of way. Exactly the same way as most motorcyclists use them at the moment.
    The biggest threat to cyclists in bicycle lanes is other cyclists. Cycle/cycle accidents outweigh anything else in those lanes; even car/cycles. Iuse bicycle lanes occasionally on my way home. Generally there are as many motorcycles using them as bicycles - I've seen several bicycle crashes where one cyclist collides with another - I'm yet to see a motorcycle/cyclist crash in a bicycle lane. Yes I'm sure they have occurred somewhere but I've not seen it - what I do see is would be road racers (cyclists) riding at 50-60kph in a bicycle lane and bringing down other cyclists.
  11. you're obviously not, and never have been a cyclist i take it?

    i see it so often on here its gotta make you laugh, the very same people that hammer on about how poorly cages treat motorcyclists day in and day out will have no problem treating cyclists with similar contempt :?

    ride a pushy every day for a couple of months and THEN you can come up with recommendations that concern that group. because unless your a cyclist, you're just like a cager telling a biker not to lane split....

    if it makes any of you 'cyclists dont get taxed' people feel any better, i'd probably feel better if there wasn't a marked bicycle lane. keep the road the same width so cars can over take but DONT mark that lane out. all it does is make people dislike us more and gives people a rule to break. if its not there, motorbikes wont use it and cages wont attempt to use it (shits me no end when i have to ride through soft mud to get around some idiot cager thats gotten stuck in the treadly lane while trying to get past stopped traffic)
  12. Saying it's a load of crap (in your opinion) doesn't make my opinion wrong.
    Of course it hasn't happened(in bike lanes), it's not allowed at the moment is it? How many cyclist have been hit from behind by cars or bikes, many! Why put them back in the same lane when the bike lane was designed to seperate them for safety in the first place?

    Do you ride through crowds at 40kmh approaching people from behind that don't know you're coming? It's riddled with danger is what I'm saying.

    Evidence that this would cause accidents? Provide me evidence that it wouldn't. "we" is you to!

    Perhaps it's a cyclist based comment? I've probably done more K's on my pushy than many do in their car or motorbike, so I think I'm qualified to comment on the dangers to cyclists. Fortunately I also drive a car and ride a motorbike, so I can see from all points of view. Are you looking at it from all points of view or just for the benefit of the motorbike rider?
  13. Funny thing with these policies - bicycles are not an alternative to a car for commuting - they are an alternative to public transport.

    I work with a lot of cyclists. If they don't ride they use public transport. They don't see it as being an alternative to a car for commuting.

    Bicycles have a definite place in transport strategies but they are not the cure all many of their proponents think they are. They are not suitable for many people whose level of fitness or ability precludes them from riding bicycles (anyone with knee problems for a start).

    They are not suited to lengthy commutes or for carrying anything much. They are less suited to bad weather than most scooters or motorcycles.

    Bicycles on roads without bicycle lanes actually contribute to congestion and slowing traffic flow - bicycle lanes on roads mean narrowing lanes and can cause other traffic flow problems.

    I can't see too many people commuting from Greensborough or Seaford to the city by bicycle (yes, some will - some people will run from there to the city too, it doesn't mean it's apropriate for most :roll: ).

    Once again we have the government spending a lot of money on bicycle paths that only the inner suburban residents will use.

  14. Too funny.

    If you are using a bycle lane on your motorbike, it's cos the traffic is moving slower than pushies.

    therefore there is no "need" to overtake the cyclist.
    you just cruise along with them thankful that you aren't stuck in the traffic.

    Also, any motorcylcist going 4 times the spead of a vehicle in front of them without being aware of that vehicle needs to stop riding.

    I think the next step is to qauntify motorcyclist numbers in a proper way.
    TAC or Vicroads info. and have it broken down by suburb.
    I don't think looking at how many bikes appear to be on the road or in a carpark will be accurate enough to convince any government.
  15. till i had kids, it was for me. theres no PT going anywhere near my work and i think i could count the times i've used PT in the last 6 years on one hand. so yeah, the pushy was an alternative to the car AND the motorbike.

    riding a bicycle can fix these things, it takes a while to get in shape but once there, its a very viable option depending on the distance.
    if your level of fitness doesn't allow you to ride a pushy, i'd say you have a problem that probably needs addressing anyways. and certain knee issues can actually be sorted out by excercise, cycling is basically zero impact and buils muscles up around the knee quite rapidly.i've had issues with my knees since i was a teenager and cycling sorts that right out (only time it comes back is when i'm off the bike for a few months)

    depends on the person i guess. if you are committed, then long commutes are fine. but not everyone drives 100km to work, there are plenty of people out there that would benefit from a 10-20km ride twice a day.
    i carried just as much on my treadly as i did on my motorbike, its a little harder but its FAR from impossible. certainly you wont be able to carry your business around with you if your say a sparky, but if you were riding a motorbike/scooter anyways, i'd say you'd be able to carry the same amount.
    and why are motorbikes/scooters better suited to bad weather? what, we cant get wet weather clothing for cyclists? :LOL:

    yeah, its pretty rough having to move over a few cm on the road to avoid a cyclist :roll: how utterly inconvenient, i can see how that'll congest things up :p

    it happens, but thats not really the point. its pretty obvious that its NOT a really viable option in that case is it? i mean we dont go around saying that your local plumber should be operating out of a scooter in order to reduce congestion do we? stating a captain obvious doesn't really help your argument :LOL:

    i live in keysborough and commute to springvale. i use bicycle lanes and i really dont think we're classed as 'inner suburbs' :wink:
  16. Re Coconuts and TonyE, you both make excellent and valid points.

    What we need is a coordinated strategy, not piecemeal, which is all that pollies generally provide. I don't really fancy the 23km ride to work by pushy as it doesn't suit me from a time perspective. If however I had a job in the city, I'd either change my bike (to a better commuter type) or use PT. I'd never drive the car, just way too frustrating. If I lived closer to work or worked and lived in the inner city, I'd use the pushy all the time.

    What I don't quite get is how there are certain assumptions made by pollies and the PT advocates, namely that cars are bad and PT/Cycling is good, with no in between.

    Surely the best congestion tax is congestion itself? If we all hate sitting in traffic going nowhere, then we'll find alternatives that are quicker and better. But that doesn't mean that there should be no investment in road infrastructure either.
  17. It's pretty easy dream up worst case scenarios (eg Motorcyclist on demonic hayabusa with lances and spikes attached to front fairing, numberplate DEATH, tries to mow down cyclists in the bike lane at 100kph - therefore, NO motorcycles should ever be allowed in the bicycle lane)

    Such worst-case thinking is why the government thinks it prudent to outlaw lane-filtering, and is the basis of those crap TAC wipe-off-five ads.

    The reality is, the majority of motorcyclists are sensible and aren't going to cause problems in the bike lane. Motorcycles ARE using bike lanes at the moment, just like motorcycles ARE lane-splitting at the moment. Not because we are all outlaws, but because most of us are sensible it works.

    Morons are going to do stupid things regardless of legality.

    So if you want worst-case scenarios, sell your bike because the next time you pull out of your driveway could be your last if a drink driving speeding truckie mows you down.

  18. And they tend to kick the glass back out of the bike lanes. And they tend to put a real dint in trangressing cars /doors. I have no problem with it, and I spend more time on the pushy than the motorbike. Neither do most of the cyclists I have talked to about this.

    Sometimes a problem when some spatially non aware scooter rider doesnt realise he is holding you up :)
  19. So the motorcyclist moves into the traffic lane to overtake? So?
  20. without looking at the rest of your post, have you actually tried riding the pushy to work? i reckon a lot of peoples would be VERY suprised at their commute time if they stuck with it for a little while.

    even at minimal fitness, my 10km commute is about 5mins longer by bicycle than by car. get me on the road for a months or two and i'll be on par or faster by pushy (wind dependant). what is most interesting about this is that my commute is almost all 80kph and 100kph zones, and my max speed on the treadly would be around 50kph (only in short bursts tho, i'm doing extremely well to hold 35kph the whole distance)

    it'll depend on the situation, but a lot of people would be really suprised by how much time they might actually save by taking whats normally a slower vehicle....