Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

[VIC] How can they claim it's me?

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' at netrider.net.au started by Kranzy, Mar 19, 2008.

  1. MOD: please place the state you are in in your topic or next time I delete this post!

    Ok last night I went for a drive in my friends ute (ford falcon)
    and I got pulled up by the police who claim I was doing 119 in an 80 zone, which entails 6pts, 400 dollar fine and 6month suspension.
    But I want to know how they can be sure it was me they clocked as on the ticket the vehicle in question was a holden ute? If they can't even Identify the vehicle as it's parked right in front of them, how can they claim to have identified it as me speeding??
    Do I have a reasonable argument here???
    any advice would be much appreciated.


  2. Here we go again....... :mad:
  3. Reasonable advice -:

    If it wasn't you then get a solicitor and fight it.

    If it was you then either pay the fine/do the suspension or take it to court and attempt to argue for an alteration in the applicable penalty, but admit to it.
  4. Did they follow you?
    Did you go through a speed trap?
    When did they pull you up?

    Need some more info.

    If (for example) they pulled you up and said that 5 mins ago a ute was seen doing etc... I would be submitting a written response.

    If (for example) they came to a tyre screeching halt after a 15 minute chase I'd be paying up. :p
  5. Sorry dude but that post just screams "i got caught fanging my mates car. How can I get out of it?"

    Youre screwed. At best you could contest the fine and worst case scenario, delay the suspension. Best case scenario, they dont follow it up and it goes away. I got lucky like that once. 180 in a 80 zone. $500 fine, lots of points and 6mth suspension. due to some wording on the fine(or lack thereof), i wrote a letter and contested it and they wrote back to me saying that they will reissue the fine with the correct wording. 3 years, still no letter.
  6. If a traffic stop was conducted, and you were detected immediately prior to being stopped, pay up and start pushbike shopping.
  7. they were hiding off the road a but earlier and they came up behind me (Was doing about 70) and then lights.
    thing is i'd been round a few bends and they'd have lost sight and if they can't even identify the type of car how can they say its me?
    There's no way i was that far over!
  8. Then put that in a letter, and request that the ticket be reduced to 10k or less over.
    Do not admit the alleged offence, but state that whilst you believe you are totally innocent, and would (if necessary) be prepared to contest this in a court, you are willing to wear the lesser fine to resolve the issue.
    Also request that (if they will not reduce the fine) the complainant (booking officer) supply all evidence he is relying on, in order for you to have a defence prepared.

    NOT guaranteeing it will work, but if they realise you are serious, and it's an "observed" speed, not a "detected" speed booking, they may just back off.
  9. Make sure that letter is registered with proof of delivery and keep a copy for yourself appropriately signed by a JP or even better, a front service desk police officer.
  10. if you wanna have a crack at getting off (and I would suggest this is only a thin chance), sign the back of the infringement notice that elects to have the matter heard in court.

    It will take a few months at least for the case to come up (this could help you)

    Represent yourself (save costs)

    When you stand up in front of the beak, he or she will probably ask you what you want to say etc. Simply respond with something along the lines of:

    "I believe there is enough doubt in this case to have the matter dropped"

    You'll be asked to explain

    "the officer has alleged on this infringement notice that the vehicle detected speeding was a Holden Ute. I was not driving a Holden Ute, and I can therefore only believe that he has confused me with the vehicle that was in fact detected speeding" - If you say this, it's important to get it out in one go.

    The magistrate will probably ask you what you were driving, tell him it was a Ford Falcon Ute. The Magistrate will probably ask you what the rego of the Ford is, or ask you if the rego of the Ford is ABC-123

    "Yes it is, however the officer only recorded that after I was pulled over. I recall that there was other traffic around at the time"

    The Magistrate may ask the officer if he/she recalls other traffic at the time. They will probably say "no"

    You should ask the Magistrate if you can ask the officer a question

    "Can you absolutely be sure there was no other vehicles in vacinity given that you have clearly stipulated that the offending vehicle was a Holden Ute ?"

    Dunno what might happen after that, you could get lucky, or the Mag will say, too bad, it was you and you'll have to cop the penalty in full, and also pay court costs (these are pre-defined and you'll be notified of these before you appear)
  11. This makes you 'argumentative' or a 'dishonored party' in any private administrative process to resolve the matter.

    Tramp's advice is better - written response seeking to assist resolve the matter.

    THEY can always take you to court later if they can't resolve the matter with you privately.
  12. Write them a letter saying the ticket is incorrect. My Dad got a speeding ticket that said the vechile was a sedan when it was a station wagon. He sent off a letter pointing this out to the RTA and they withdrew the fine and demerit points without any arguement.
  13. Your missing the key information...............

    Its from Victoria, sorry dude hes screwed IMO.
  14. ???

    #1 - you are never thought of as being "argumentative" by electing your democratic right, and a right supplied to you by virtue of the election on the back on the actual notice. That's just utter rubbish.

    #2 - there is no such thing as a "Private administrative process", this is a traffic infringement notice issued by the Police Service and administered by the State Government. There is only an official process available. He may pay the fine - Matter resolved. He may elect to have it heard in court - Matter will be resolved. He may write a letter asking for consideration or review - the Traffic Infringement Branch will answer and give their decision on the matter. From this he may be cleared - Matter resolved. He may not be cleared and the infringement notice maintained. He therefore pays - Matter resolved. Or he takes the court option - Matter will be resolved.

    Each and every one of those is an official process

    #3 - THEY cannot take him to court. They have already taken legal action by issuing the infringement notice. If he does not take action within the statutory time limits, they will take him to court FOR NOT finalising the matter, not for the infringement itself. There is no private resolution, there is only official resolution

    Ktulu, it's far better you actually understand the processes involved before you start making absolute statements, especially when those statements are blatantly and obviously wrong
  15. Our courts allow for alternative dispute resolution.

    One way of resolving this kind of dispute [traffic fine] is to admit guilt and cop it [pay the fine].
    Another is to win the argument in front of a judge [elect to take it to court].
    Another is to reach an agreement with the SDRO... for instance - payment in installments, etc as an example.

    But also: if you state your position in the correct manner, there are legal avenues for a 'private administrative process', because IF an individual is innocent there should be avenues for them to resolve a dispute without spending money on a lawyer or losing days off work. In the spirit of fairness, this is actually allowed for in our legal system.

    For example,

    1) I get a letter from the SDRO that says "haHA! We caught you speeding on this day at this time. You owe us $100."
    2) I write a letter back which in essence says "OK, thanks for that. My private records indicate that I was not speeding on that day at that time... but I conditionally accept your charge based on the submission of the proof you will rely on in court to charge me with the matter."
    3) I give them a month to respond.

    My legal position in relation to them is "I will totally and completely comply with your requests as a good little citizen on the PROVISION you show me your proof."

    If they supply the proof - well then you either pay or you invite them to elect to have the matter heard in court.

    But if they don't supply proof... well what do you think normally happens when the police accuse someone of something but then fail to produce any proof?

    There are finer points and funny details and chunks of constitutional law that apply to this, and I lack the expertise to go through all that here on a forum... so ignore this if you like, and I can't really answer every question you may have regarding this, but I just wanted to make the points that:

    1) Tramp's letter leaves the accused with more options for the resolution of the dispute.
    2) The option written on the back of an infringement notice are NOT complete, and their system relies on people taking their word for what their options are / lacking awareness of legal recourse options.

    If you question this, I'd be happy to discuss it over a beer sometime, but if you just don't believe what I'm talking about is possible or available to someone in our legal system, then nevermind about the whole thing - I don't have the energy or the expertise to discuss it further on here.
  16. Thanks Ktulu - for once on this forum, an unemotive and level response from someone.

    All of the things you mentioned above are certainly Official processes, maybe what we're talking about here is merely semantics and in one way or another, we're actually meaning the same thing. If I am not mistaken, the Infringement Notice states that "Part payment is not allowed", or words exactly to the effect.

    The SDRO only comes into the picture upon payment default. They are not involved in payment organisation at the outset. Also I would imagine that the Police are not in any way bound or required to divulge evidence UNTIL a matter has been elected to be brought before the courts, and then only upon proper request (possible subpoena).

    The infringement notice is a charge (not criminal of course) and the method by which it is processed, is the payment. This is your admittance of guilt as evidenced by your payment of the fine. The charge has a penalty (some might say sentence), which is the fine and the Demerit points you have recorded against your licence. The alternative method by which the charge is processed is in the court. If you are issued with an Infringement Notice, YOU are the only one that can elect to have it in court.

    If you fail to pay or fail to elect, the Police will then take your INACTION to court, where you will be judged. At that time you will ALSO be judged on the infringement you are charged with commiting. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless
  17. I don't think that is the case.

    From the SDRO:

    SDRO is the fines division of the Office of State Revenue (OSR).

    We are responsible for the receipt and processing of fines issued by various government agencies and authorities, and administering the fine enforcement system for the collection of unpaid fines.

    Our authority is outlined in the Fines Act 1996.

    ABN number 77 456 270 638

    In providing this service we:

    issue and process penalty notices
    process payments and requests for review of fines
    educate clients on their options to finalise fines
    process requests to have fines determined by a court.
    We can also take the following actions to recover the fines that remain unpaid:

    issue and process enforcement orders
    suspend or cancel driver licences
    cancel vehicle registrations
    apply business restrictions preventing you from doing business with the RTA
    issue property seizure orders, and take and sell goods to pay outstanding fines
    issue garnishee orders to take money from wages or bank accounts to pay outstanding fines
    issue examination summons to make a person go to court to explain their financial situation
    place a charge on land affecting its sale until outstanding fines are paid
    issue a community service order to work off outstanding fines
    issue warrants for breach of community service orders.

    Taken from:

  18. Stealth - is this the same for VIC ? My references were for VIC.

    Now, here's something interesting, and something that casts my first post on this matter into doubt:

  19. Also this:

  20. Hey Doonx, nah that's NSW, but the references were made about SDRO, and i cant seem to find a branch of SDRO for Vic. at all.

    You guys have it a bit rough.. Finding info on the Vic Roads site sucks big ones.