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[VIC] GPS Readout beats Radar Gun

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by mjt57, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21999706-661,00.html

    Wish I had a GPS that talked to a computer when I got done a few years ago.

    Was doing around 67kays in a 60 zone. Saw the camera flash me. Dam. Oh well, cop that one.

    A week later when I get the fine it is for 70 km/h or 10 kays over. That means a heftier fine and more points.

    The alleged speed was 70, the detected speed 73. You get pinged for the former figure.

    Couldn't do anything about it. It'd be my word against the camera's "evidence".

    Since then we've had the Western Ring Road fiasco and various incidents where speed cameras are set up incorrectly and the TCO being forced to withdraw fines.

    These days, though, I have a GPS that I can download the data from and produce a printout.

    The article says that the TCO would reject a motorist's GPS data as it isn't "corroborating". So, a radar gun's or camera's evidence IS???

    I would suggest that the next option would be to challenge it in court.

    Of course, as was the case for me, I'd have to be selective in what data I brought along - ie. the time frame would have to be pertinent to the alleged offence. Anything earlier than that, for me, would have been problematic, to say the least...
  2. Bit of a double edged sword if they become standard devices for vehicles. There has been moves in the UK to mount all cars with a version of this GPS that feeds your speed and location to a central database. This means that your car has the ability to dob you in for speeding :shock: !

    Thankfully it has been debated for years and does not look like taking traction in the near future.

    I am sure that they will however use the threat of "terrorism" to enforce the need for this.
  3. It's a tricky one.

    GPSes aren't absolute in their accuracy, and it's trivial to create your own tracklogs using track editing software. It would not be hard to create a falsified log.

    Even without tampering, my GPS has alleged that I've reached speeds of up to 182kph on my mountainbike, and 284kph in my old MR2, neither of which is physically achievable.

    GPSes are not infallible, and can't be trusted at all in heavily built-up environments (eg: around skyscrapers, anywhere there is tree cover).
  4. [quote ="www.news.com.au"]Opposition transport spokesman Terry Mulder said Mr Pownceby's experience cast doubt on the accuracy of police radar guns.

    He said if Mr Pownceby hadn't been able to produce the GPS data, he would have had to pay a $215 fine and cop three demerit points.

    "How many innocent motorists who lack onboard GPS units have been wrongly fined by Steve Bracks and Bob Cameron's dodgy police radar guns?" he asked. [/quote]

    Because the Libs never pushed the speeding bandwagon or used handheld radar guns...
    F#$^ing Politicians. There all so full of SH!T!!!
  5. Which GPS is it? I have owned 3 now. Garmin Etrex, Etrex Legend and currently an Etrex Legend C. None of them have displayed the errors that yours has.

    And neither are speed cameras or hand held radar guns. So, if at least you have a GPS you can verify, in your own mind, at least, if you were really speeding. In my case, I was pretty certain that I wasn't speeding to the extend that the camera alleged. But I couldn't prove it. And this goes to the very crux of the matter of credibility and ergo, the public's confidence in the technology. It also bears out the perception that it's about revenue raising, particularly when the government budgets for it.
  6. ^yeah, if your GPS provides evidence you weren't doing the wrong thing: use it to get out of the fine!

    If it doesn't... don't use it and cop it sweet like the bad-old days.
  7. Garmin Etrex Legend C (reprezent!).

    You just need to use them around tall buildings and forests more often. ;)

    The bicycle speed reading was easy to work out. I was travelling due West at 30kph on a road, entered thick overhead tree coverage and at the same time the road turns hard right.

    Garmins (and most GPS brands) extrapolate your last known course if they temporarily lose reception. I managed to put a bit of distance between my old course and my new position; exiting tree cover the GPS found my new position and to save memory the log recorded an average speed of 182kph over about 100 metres.

    Try geocaching in the Sydney CBD too. Or even just navigating in general; the reflections from skyscrapers confuse the hell out of the GPS.

    I wouldn't disagree. But to play Devil's Advocate, if you were the police, which would you believe?
    * An officially-controlled, regularly calibrated speed camera, operated by a trained and proficient operator.
    * A privately owned device whose measurements are not absolute to begin with, is easily confused by tree coverage and reflections from tall buildings, and furthermore, whose logs can easily be edited or falsified by anyone with a computer.

    But then, Victoria has a long history of badly calibrated speed cameras and improper operation of such, so who knows.
  8. Don't get me wrong; if I were incorrectly done for speeding and my GPS was active at the time, the very first thing I'd do is call "BS!" and show the police the logs as a part of my defence.

    But I can understand why the police wouldn't view a GPS log in high regard.

    It would need to be backed up by other evidence somehow; information which would place the speed camera's reading in doubt in addition to the log showing you doing the right thing.
  9. There are satellite tracking companies that offer thier services here in Aus. for tracking your bike in the event it is stolen. They also provide up to two weeks worth of data on your travel log(s), which you can nominate to have recorded.

    As an indpendant source for accurate data, the courts would have a hard time dismissing this.

    As for them seeing your whole log, not sure about that. You would only probably need to submit your log for a small window of time at the time date stamp on the said offence.
  10. You'd just black out all the irrelevant data...
  11. Once Upon a Time I remember hearing that you needed to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt to be punished. I also remember that during your defense, you could. . . wait for it. . . introduce evidence into the record. :shock:

    It would be wishful thinking that a GPS track could be accepted as evidence of the speed you were travelling at a given time, and create reasonable doubt in the mind of a judge. But it should, and it would be nice to try. However, didn't Victoria legislate to basically say, "If a speed camera records you speeding, you are guilty. No discussion." ? Oh, and "All our cameras are calibrated regularly and used only according to the specifications and the law, so no, you can't have a copy of the test records, or the manuals, or the Police Policies and Procedures for their use, as it would be a waste of our time."

    Anyway, my Garmin eTrex Summit is very accurate on a straight open road, and can be used to calibrate my speedo, but in the trees I can record astounding speeds, and my acceleration capabilities are unheard of, going from 6Km/h to 380Km/h in 100 metres. :grin:

    Despite all the forgoing issues raised in this thread, I plan to put a Garmin Zumo GPS on my bike, and if get a happy snap taken, I will certainly review the log, and see if it provides some reasonable doubt.

    I would hope if the log was used to disprove a speeding fine, that this would not provide reasonable cause for the police to demand to see the full log. It shouldn't, but you never know. :roll:
  12. Have a freind in the UK who has put some mini spy cameras onto his bike and captures all his travels , only deleting them after a month or so (in time span of receiving a speeding fine etc.)

    He got the idea from a police motorbike that has them, which they submit into court and can easily determine your speed by timing the white 100 yard markers or fixed way points on the road (the specs from the camera actually show you how to work this out).

    Not sure if u can admit this as evidence, but it would be absolute in determining how fast you were going before being caught.
  13. Interesting points of views, guys.

    With the idea of the courts rejecting GPS data as evidence, then that would pretty well put the kybosh on the plans to track truckies using the same technology, if we're talking about accuracy, etc..

    Thing is, I used a GPS in optimum conditions to calibrate a cycle computer and which to date, has proved reliable and accurate. Again, it's not a mega-dollar bit of technology that coppers use, but there's no reason as to why it can't be as accurate.

    All you need to do is to introduce an element of doubt. Certainly, in a jury trial this is all that it's needed to get off. But when it comes to facing a magistrate, well, it's more or less up to him whether to believe you or not. And even if he does believe that you weren't speeding that's no guarantee that he won't convict you anyway.
  14. #14 lunatic_luke, Jul 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015

    Ok it's 170, but I think 182 would be achievable :shock:
  15. Last night on the Monash fwy (Melb) my GPS unit went into spaz mode, and I apparently reached speeds of 832 km/h in my commodore wagon :shock: :LOL: LMAO That was the first time it's ever done that.

    Not sure what happened once I came out of the tunnel, but I was doing 80km/h via the speedo, the gps indicated 213km/h and then after a bit starting jumping around, topping out the jet fighter speed.

    Anyone else have a gps spaz last night?
  16. I sometimes wonder how the turn by turn navigation systems manage at all in built up areas. Imagine the sequence "Turn right in 30 metres" . . ."recalculating" . . . "Make a U turn and proceed South" . . . ."recalculating" . . . "make a U turn and proceed North" . . . you get the idea.

    I think you should take the track log from your GPS and turn yourself in t the police. Naughty you, doing 832Km/h in town. We know you could do it. :grin:
  17. Melbourne CBD isn't too bad for signal reflections as the skyscrapers aren't so tightly packed; the GPS can usually see enough satellites to sanity-check its calculations and discard the really strange ones.

    Sydney CBD is utterly shocking for satnav though - it can get a bit like the situation you described. Lots of teleporting onto other roads nearby.
  18. We had a Tom Tom One navigator. It tended to play up when trying to get from say, Flinders St up to Lygon St, Carlton. Recently we purchased a MIO C510 navigator to replace the stolen TomTom and a Bluetooth hands free unit. It worked fine, no issues with ghosting, reflected signals or whatever. I think that it has a different chipset or receiver than what the TomTom has. If correct that may explain why the MIO's been a good performer to date.
  19. The speed problem you are seeing with your GPS unit is due to the calculation taking into account changes in altitude. This is actually the most innacurate variable on the units, and the expensive models use a barometric sensor.

    To stop this from happening you can / should be able to disbale the 3D modelling in the menu to 2D only, eg. coordinates only, no altitude. :!:

    Use to have this problem all the time in my aircraft GPS until I turned off the altimiter function.
  20. There was a speeding case recently in Melbourne where a guy in a ute had his gps on and used the logs to present to the officer who booked him. Luckily the officer accepted the gps log information and dropped the speeding charge without it going to court.