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[VIC] Confrontational Liberal policies include banning outlaw bikie gangs.

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by robsalvv, Dec 1, 2010.

  1. http://vic.liberal.org.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=UBI2uCUQfFY=&tabid=189 Outlaw Criminal bikie gangs

    http://vic.liberal.org.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=86tNaecTnVc=&tabid=189 Crush hooning with tough anti hooning laws

    http://vic.liberal.org.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qeFGcUAOCtw=&tabid=189 End suspended sentences

    Those three policies will have significant impacts on motorcycling and driving and in conjunction with a bunch of others, continue to beigeify victoria. The politics of fear are alive and well. :(

    This article: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...chief-to-refocus/story-e6frg6nf-1225962953769 talks about Overland remaining in office, but the OPI being replaced by something handmade by the Libs.

    Civil libertarians must be passing the hat around for the fighting funds.
  2. Gaaahhh! *Throws up hands*

    That's about all I can say :(. Things like:

    [Overland] "..They are the government, and that's who I work for."

    make me sad.
  3. As for the bikie gang release - unless you really are part of a criminal organisation, I can't see it having much of an effect. Of course, the term 'bikie gang' tends to filter through society and many people probably associate motorcyclists with gangs by default - this, is a shame.

    Crushing cars? Well, I doubt we'll see many (if any) cars crushed under the scheme. The kind of person who will end up with a cube where their car was, is someone who is a complete moron who thinks they're tougher than the police (on 3 occasions) and then turns up to a court hearing and tries to take on a judge. Any sane person will turn up in a suit, act as if they're sorry and get their car back.

    Suspended sentences might have an effect for those who speed and get caught on a regular basis. But even then, I'd be interested to know how many people here have actually been handed a suspended sentence for a driving/riding offence?

    All in all, it's the conservatives being their usual conservative selves - 99.9% of us won't even feel any changes.
  4. I don't see any of the above having a major effect for most people here. Suspended sentences is a wider issue and nothing to do with bikes specifically. Bike gangs is more about the gangs and little to do with bikes, if anything. I don't see that as a bad one in general.

    The hoon laws is the most relevant and applies to all road users. They are tougher but at least they have the word education in them. Overall a negative policy but at least education is beginning to appear in these things (as long as it is good education and not "don't do this" rubbish).
  5. Yes it's dumb to drive / ride while disqualified - but there are a lot of people who do it. You don't need "lots of speeding / traffic offences either - it just takes 1 silly moment to lose it

    Thought I better say where the quote came from :)
    It was on the smartjustice site in a factsheet supported by grants from the Victoria Law Foundation and the Reichstein Foundation
  6. Adprom, you didn't look up the civil liberty sites about "laws that don't effect me", did you?

    Anyway, hoon laws were inspired originally by antisocial behaviour - but they've been widened time and time again so that if you're riding along on an empty straight road above the trigger speed, your bike can be towed. How is that antisocial? Thin edge of the wedge.

    The SA bikie laws had the potential to be applied to any group - there's a bit of commentary around about it. The reason the Labor government didn't follow suit on the anti bikie laws is that they argued there were already sufficient laws in place. The libs argue: “Victorian families need protection from bikie gangs who are engaged in serious criminal activity such as drug production and trafficking, violence, blackmail, extortion, arson and intimidation and represent a major threat to public safety and order." If what they say is true, then what's wrong with the existing laws? So... if they make a gang illegal... where are all the gang members going to end up? In Jail? As a... wait for it, gang?

    The lib policy continues the politics of fear and the emotive appeal to family safety. How are you being intrinsically more endangered by bikie gangs today than yesterday Adprom? There are plenty of gangs around that run drugs, but don't have patches. Where's the anti "non significantly clothed but suspected of running drugs and extortion group" laws?

    There's a basic premise in bikie laws, which is guilty before being proven innocent. There's a trend in this beigeified country towards this type of application of law - each example erodes the liberties of everyone, even if they don't feel it.

    Don't have time to discuss the other points.
  7. Rob, I'm just more inclined to believe that there is more valid justification behind the bikie one. The hoon laws cover excessive speeding...

    The only one I see as being relevant and justified to whinge about here is the hoon one.

    Rob, I see what you are saying - and on a fair bit of it I believe you are correct. The question I have is what are you trying to achieve though? What action do you want to take? You had issue with the labor govt and with the lib policy.

    I am starting to believe that it is going to take some nanny rules for everyone to rebel and get them loosened up. I think the rules are going to require to be taken to a ridiculous extent so they are seen for what they are and got rid of.... I think we are potentially too far down the slope now as it is.
  8. so they 'can be seen to be doing something' without actually having to do anything

  9. And that's what politics is all about....

    But we can't be too cynical. How many people here "pretend" to do their work, but instead look up Netrider etc.... ? hmmmm? :angel:
  10. Education and discussion. The more people who don't take these proposals at face value, the better. Some might even be motivated to discuss them.

    Bad policy is bad policy. The article Flux posted up explains the SA anti bikie law situation well.

    you may be right.
  11. Tell that to the Ulyssians in SA who got pulled over on a club run and interrogated - or the Christian Motorcycle Club who were raided in SA.
  12. so they outlaw criminal motorcycle gangs - is not a criminal an outlaw already ?

    whats happens - they just go underground -

    legislate all you want but it will not stop them

    I cant wait until the following gangs get outlawed because they are recognizable by their patches


    those are some bad ass gangs with lots of members -- I see those Astars gang members everywhere in their tough guy power ranger leathers
  13. Thats not "quite" correct.
    The key phrase in the article was:

    "In South Australia we see legislation that is essentially allowing the minister or the attorney general to direct the court to make an order. The High Court has quite simply said that is unconstitutional.

    Mr Davies said the issue considered by the High Court was the separation of powers between the legislative and judicial arms of government."

    The High Court found that the SA legislation as drafted was unconstitutional.
    Properly drafted legislation could be constitutional, but it would be a hard task writing it.
  14. As has been said before, it's important to drop the 'Bikie Gang Laws' label ,and call them what they are: 'Freedom of Association laws'.

    The gormless masses need to know that it's NOT just about hardcore outlaws.
  15. They even wear kevlar and armour, for god's sake! That alone should be enough to prove their intentions :nod:.
  16. I'm afraid whilst I don't think any of these 3 proposals are very useful or for that matter very helpful I simply don't find myself being very bothered by them.

    I don't hoon on the bike on the road (there are track days or off road areas for that) and I don't really care if some loser spends some more time inside.

    The 3rd one about the criminal groups one is probably worth watching to make sure it isn't used as the thin edge of the wedge to stop real political dissent.

    They give you 3 chances to stuff up with the hoon laws and if you can't learn a lesson by then they're thick and I've got no sympathy. As for suspended sentences for serious offenses being eliminated being applied to people who drive while suspended that's self inflicted. People lose their licenses and and if you lose it you walk... SIMPLE.

    But if they were to outlaw (for example) a group lobbying for euthanasia as distinct from outlawing a group offering active help to practice euthanasia (which would be assisting a criminal offence) I'd be concerned. But there are no signs yet of the 'bikie' laws being extended in that way.

    There have been some issues around the police applying them wrongly (the Ulysses member and that Christian bike club mentioned earlier in the thread are 2 example) and that should be addressed but that's a separate issue to the laws themselves.

    Now the greens proposal to extend no fishing areas, and to block off vehicle access to even more tracks in national parks; that really annoyed me. That's taking action against people who haven't done anything wrong and who haven't broken any laws.