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Vaporate is this snake oil??

Discussion in 'Technical and Troubleshooting Torque' at netrider.net.au started by uzz32, May 22, 2005.

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  2. if it is proved to be a load of rubbish, then it's going to be pretty embarrassing for repco :p
     
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  4. a quote from that site >>> He said Vaporate was less effective on commercial vehicles carrying heavy loads, vehicles driven on mostly country roads and those driven too fast.

    So if your car/truck is loaded up, it wont help?
    if your doing country miles, hence better fuel economy any, it wont help?
    and if your a lead foot, it wont help?
    thats a pretty interesting device he has designed, it doesnt seem to help anyone :p

    listen people, its a "crock" every engine designer knows, COOLING fuel makes more horsepower, not the other way round, that's why they have intercoolers on performance vehicles and why you see ice placed on the tanks of race bikes waiting on the grid before a race.
    cold/cool fuel is denser, therefore, you get more into the cylinders.
    if the air/fuel mixture is fine, then all is good.
    pre-warming fuel to aid the combustion before it gets mixed with the air WILL reduce performance and make your vehicle run leaner.
    anyone here ever notice how their bike has more go on a cold day??

    my 2 cents worth anyway........

    cheers ratty ( aka Paul )
     
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  5. It's effectively a heatsink. It takes heat from the engine to heat up the injection nozzle. And that's supposed to heat up the fuel before it's injected. It seems to work out, and something simple like checking how much of the energy in the heatsink actually raises the temperature of the fuel, and then checking phase transition tables to see if it maintains its vapour state.

    If it works, it's actually quite ingenious.

    Intercoolers actually lowers the temperature of the compressed air from the turbocharger. When air is compressed, it causes the air temperature to rise. Higher temperature means a less dense air. So an Intercooler aims to cool the air to increase the charge, and improve volumetric efficiency.

    However this doesn't really (don't quote me on this) have anything to do with fuel injection. What this device allegedly says it does is heats the fuel so it maintains a complete vapour state as it enters the cylinder, as opposed to having partial vapour and liquid phases of the fuel.

    Anyways, preheating fuel before it enters the cylinder may have problems with misfire, since there's a higher energy potential during compression as opposed to cooler fuel. But don't quote me on this, I didn't do too well in Thermodynamics :).
     
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  6. I agree AND disagree with you. The reason they put ice on the petrol tanks of race bikes is so they can fit for petrol into the tank. As you said cold/cool fuel is denser and therefore you can fit more into a tank (quite important in a long race if you can fit an extra 1/2litre in). By the time the fuel has run through the fuel lines after a few laps it'll warm up again anyway.

    As for intercoolers they don't cool PETROL at all. They cool the AIR that the engine is drawing in for combustion. Yes it is the same principal as the fuel thing. The colder air is the denser it is, therefore the more oxygen it contains. we all know oxygen and fire go together like a hand in a glove so the more oxygen you can draw into the cyclinder on each cycle the more volatile the air/fuel mix is due to the higher oxygen content and therefore produce more power from a more violent explosion.

    Cheers,
    Josh
     
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  7. quite aware that an intercooler cools the air after being compressed by a turbo,because compressed air gains heat, was being simplistic about cooler denser air/fuel mixes always producing better performance.

    to me heating either fuel/air mix before entering the cylinder would surely reduce performance.
     
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  8. It looks like it aids in evening out the mixture at lower revs/loads - perfect for stop/start city traffic where the vehicle sits way way outside its most-optimal rev range 90% of the time.

    Good idea for commuters, not of much use to the rest of us.
     
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  9. oi that thing about the petrol being cold...... ummm

    well according to my yr 12 chemestry it says dat if a fuel is hotter it reaches it flash point easier without using as much energy.......

    wellz my chem point of view^^
     
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  10. Intercoolers do not cool fuel, they cool the charge air. Cold fuel is better, however, once at the point of being injected into an engine the tempreture isnt going to make much of a difference. Its not going to expande back up the fuel hose (the high pressure fuel pump/s that all FI cars have will make certain of that).

    The reason your bike has more go on a cold day is because of air tempreture. The perfect air to fuel ratio for an internal combustion motor is 14:1. Fuel temp makes almost unmeasurable difference, even with a dyno.

    These thing may actually work. Warm fuel is closer to combustion point so therefor is more excited, and less likely to form magnetic bonds with one another, hence why its going to be a finer mist.
     
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  11. I whole heartedly agree with everything cowboy said!!!!!!
     
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  12. Fuel is put in your car as a liquid, the injectors then spray it as a vapour into the combustion chamber.
    If you cool liquid it is harder to turn into vapour as the molecules want to stick together and you end up with fatter drops. Because the vapour drops are fatter the fuel in the chamber it is not burnt properly and exits out your exhaust mighty quick.
    What this thing does is warm the fuel so it is vapourised into smaller drops hence saving you fuel by burning it better. Fuel == $$.

    My olds own a mechanics shop and are hoping to install one of these in the near future, ill post the results if and when they come in.

    As for the intercooler discussion.
    The colder the air the more dense it is the better explosion you will have in the chamber. That is why they have ram intakes on your bike, where the greatest compression will be on the air hitting the bike, almost like a natural turbo charger "ram"ming the air in!

    Thats my babble for now

    *edit* what he said \/ \/ \/ :wink:
     
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  13. Fuel in liquid form doesn't change volume enough to influence power delivery with the moderate temperatures we are talking about. Most computers (a must on any injected bike) will compensate through longer injector cycles. Where only talking fractions of a second here.
    Most carburettor vehicles have hot water systems to pre heat the carby (fuel) to aid in vaporisation of fuel. This includes diverting hot air off the exhaust manifold when engine is cold. A lot of bikes don't have this to save weight and space.
    The main aim here is to insure adequate heat to vaporise fuel. When everything is cold, the choke - or computer for injected models - richens the mixture to ensure enough fuel enters so providing adequate fuel surface area to burn. Yes this means lots of fuel down the exhaust pipe when running with choke and why carburetted bikes hate cold running.
    You would be much better spending the money on cleaning your injectors more regularly.

    The amount of power delivered is a function of fuel payload and ambient temperature of air/fuel mix.(and some other stuff you can't really influence - specific density of mix etc...)

    The lower the starting temperature, the greater the volume/pressure increase in gases, hence greater power. Heating the fuel makes a small difference that is more than made up for by better fuel vaporisation, hence more even burn. Once a bike is at operating temperature, the latent heat in all the components usually is sufficient, hence the conditions this manfacturer is putting on getting any benefits.
    A large increase can be had by actually lowering air intake temperature - ever noted your car/bike running better in cold weather? This is why. A lot of performance and extreme performance engines (Aircraft, rally cars, drag cars) actually run water misting on the intakes to radically reduce intake temperatures (sometimes a 50/50 water alcohol mix)preventing preignition and allowing more agressive timing. Any engine with knock sensors can take advantage of this. As an example, this would add about 40hp to a standard Falcon/Commodore if implemented properly.

    Not really an option on a bike but illustrates the whole fuel/temperature thing.

    Well, its been fun babbling on about some stuff I dabbled with when I was in racing cars, but the bottom line is that there are much better things to spend your money on - IMHO
     
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  14. Snake Oil????

    Hi all,
    Read this and the other forum, all I can say is I had a farkin laugh,
    :applause:
    Vaporate, Hyclone, Brocky's magic magnetic power booster, LOL.
    Snake Oil now there is a good Idea,
    :-k
    Add snake oil to the petrol,
    Brilliant. There are way too many snakes anyways, may as well put em to good use. ROFL.
    Seriously,
    Engine theory is not quite rocket science, not yet.
    That will be closer when Austalia follows Brazils lead and runs cars on ethanol. My old V8 would love to run on pure Alcohol.
    A question.
    I am a bit young to actually remember,
    BUT
    Didn't the Brocky backed device
    Quote "Peter Brock's Energy Polariser"
    come right around the time Holden and the HDT shredded and burnt Mr Brocks contract.
    Or is my knowledge of that not correct.
    Anyways, good for a laugh, :D
    Cheers
    Chris.
    Edit, Bad typing, oll.
     
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  15. Poor old brocky got taken for a ride on that one,just goes to show,pay them enough and they'll endorse anything.
     
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