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Tyre comparison! Pures, Q2s, Bt-016, Rosso Corsa

Discussion in 'Tyres' at netrider.net.au started by Sheeth, Jan 29, 2011.

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  2. Thanks for the link. I currently have the Rosso Corsas on the 'fighter. Reading that made me aware of the SC2 compound on the edges. At the track day on Friday, knowing that gave me confidence to push a little harder. The Rosso's stick like proper track-day tyres on the edge. On the 'fighter I could be at full lean and accelerating strongly, and when just off full, have the throttle to the stop. In fact I reckon I could've gassed it near full throttle even at full lean but I was still exploring the limits of what the tyres could offer, and we had a misty day, so I was also trying to err on the side of caution as plenty of bikes went down on the day in their eagerness. Didn't seem to matter how early or hard I gassed it, they still stuck. Didn't get a rear slide once, which given the conditions, was utterly amazing.

    I do agree with the review about the feel on the Rossos when right at the absolute edge. They don't give a massive amount of feedback. You know that they're sticking, but they just don't seem to transmit as much feel back to the rider. Actually, the rear wasn't so bad, it was more the front. We're talking near footpeg dragging lean angles here. Anything less than full lean, and they gave a lot of feedback. This behaviour does have you a little unsure to push that little bit harder. It becomes more a lesson in faith that the tyres will stick. You get the feeling that if they're gonna let go, you're not going to get a lot of warning about it. In saying that though, they stuck fantastically in dicey conditions. I followed a guy on the Dunlop GPA race control tyres through Turn 8. I was hot on his tail, gaining ground on him. He lost the front end and crashed mid-turn on a mildly damp track. The Rossos still had enough grip to take evasive action as I sought to dodge the now sliding rider as opposed to collecting him at ~190kph. If that doesn't speak volumes for the grip they have, I don't know what will.

    Overall, they're great tyres for the aggressive road rider and track day visitor. Possibly one of the best cross-over road+track tyres I've used to date.
     
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  4. Good write up flux, sounds like a great track day tire, let us know how it holds up mileage wise.

    As far as the new sports smart goes Rattus, sounds awesome if it lives up to the advertising! Very interesting!
     
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  5. That's an interesting assessment, Flux. I don't disagree with one word of it, but I came to different conclusions.

    I had an RST1000 Aprilia Futura, and went from the original Pilot Sports, to Pilot powers, another set of powers, to a set of Power - Race, and finally at the strong urging of a friend, I went Pirelli. The plan was to go Diablo Rosso at both ends, but for the front there was only a Diablo Rosso Corsa, so that got the nod.

    It should be noted that this was probably a poor choice for the bike. The Futura is light in the front and heavy in the back. It makes a mild 100 ~ 105 hp at the wheel, and puts it down in a very gentle forgiving way. Front end grip is really good - as long as you can get it warm. With some tyres, that's easy (the powers were superb here) but with others... What would have been ideal, would have been to get the softer, 70% road tyre on the front, and the harder 50 / 50 tyre on the back.

    As a track tyre, I found the rosso corsa took a few laps to properly warm up. Once hot, the grip was superb, but as you found, feel at full lean left a lot to be desired. Grip was abundant, but it took some heart in mouth commitment to exploit it because they didn't tell me much.

    As a road tyre, the rosso was quite reasonable, but the corsa sucked. It never got warm, never told me anything, lasted for ever, and never gave me any reason to trust or believe in it. I'd covered about 47k on the previous tyres without incident, but in the next 7k on the corsa, I dropped the bike twice due to front end loss. The first one cost about 3,000 and the second cost 6,500. In fairness, both incidents happened due to a combination of circumstances, not just poor tyre grip. Both involved reduced visibility, reduced rider awareness / alertness. Both involved gravel on the road, which was hard / impossible to see under the circumstances. It would be reasonable to assert that the bike would still have gone down both times even if it had Powers on it, but it didn't, so ...

    The interesting thing is that I have read your report on the tyre, (the corsa) and there is not one word I can disagree with. Everything you have to say about them, I completely agree with. The difference is that you like them and I don't.

    How well the Pilot Power R and Pilot Power Pure Front I have just fitted to my new ZX14R will go, I don't know. My guess is that they'll be great on the road, especially at lower speeds and in cooler temps, or in the wet, but get greasy and squirrelly quite quickly at the track. My initial impression is that they're about a hundred times better than the BT014s I just replaced, but it's very early days yet.



    PS. Last time I voiced this opinion, I got told in no uncertain terms that I was a toothless crippled grandfather riding a slow bike in a conservative way, and that my opinion was of dubious validity. Fair call - that's pretty true. I would answer with this - I went to about 10 ~ 12 track days. I never actually paid to go to one. I used to spend half the day flagging, and half the day as a travelling marshal, and the organisers (Motorcycle Sportsmen and TopRider) were happy to have me there. I was offered a job as an advanced riding trainer / coach by Bernie Hatton. Plenty of people circulated faster than I did, but their bikes arrived on trailers. They had slicks and tyre warmers. They had race glass and lock wire. Of the people who turned up on their own every day road bike, I was usually the quickest, or within a second or so of the person who was. That's against R1s, Fireblades, 999 Ducatis ...
     
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  6. Hmmm, I find the "never got warm on the road" bit interesting. I run 34f/36r pressures on the road with them. At the end of most roads, after pulling up I tend to check the tyre warmth. Most generally the tyres are so hot that it's uncomfortable to leave the hand there for more than a few seconds, straight after pulling up. At the racetrack, you could barely touch the tyres after pulling up, and I literally had to peel my hand off, they almost felt like tape. They warmed up for me in the matter of one lap. I was able to drag my knee by the first corner on my out lap (no warmers used), and by mid-way around the second lap I was happy to start pushing hard.

    I think that the giveaway here is your statement of "after 7000kms" the tyres did so-and-so. I'm lucky if I can get any set of tyres to last me much more than 4000kms on the road, and that typically includes about 40-50% of straight-line riding to and from good roads.

    Either your pressures are too high, or you're not pushing hard enough to get heat into them on the road. Note that I said "aggressive" road use. I know that aggressive means different things to different people, but to me it means being able to put the knee down where visibility is good enough, even on gravel smattered roads where you can pick a clean line through the corner, and not even care about the odd stone here and there.

    If you're dropping the bike, and your footpegs hadn't touched down prior to the bike falling, I'd say that thick gravel on the road was the only reason for why they let go, and that's hardly the fault of the tyres.

    The other thing to perhaps be wary of is heat-cycling. The SC2 compound is likely prone to heat cycling, especially if you're taking >7000kms to get through a set. The tyre will tend to go a bit hard and greasy and lose some of its traction, but even then, knee-down lean angles are generally safe enough just so long as you don't try to really push the front.

    In that respect, I'd say that the Rosso Corsa's are not the right tyre for you on the road, and you're not riding them in the manner which they're intended to be used. I'm not saying that to have a go at you at all, it's just that given what you've described, it seems to be simple reality. When it comes to tyres, especially the stickier ones, it's generally a case of matching the tyre to the application, otherwise the tyre is being used outside of its intended performance envelope.
     
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  7. That I think is the case. Problem is, too little pressure and the bike stands up. Too much and it never heats up. The other factor is confidence. If you don't trust the front, it takes youth, courage, or lots of stupidity to really push it. Now I have flashes of true champion level stupidity, but it's spotty, hard to depend on. Youth and courage I've grown out of.

    I'm not sure that the tyre I'm thinking of as a Rosso Corsa is the same beast which is on sale today. I have a vague idea the tyre saw a major update some time, and only the name remains. I know that the car tyres P Zero Rosso and Rosso Corsa have been updated many times but still used a familiar name. I have also wondered if the example I had, had spent months on the shelf waiting for a loving new owner. Heat cycling is possible but unlikely. I never really got the thing hot. It certainly never got sticky to touch, or too hot to leave my hand on. On the road, in normal (legal type) riding, it rarely felt more than a few degrees warmer than the road surface.
     
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  8. The Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa's have been on the market for about 3 months now. Does that answer your question?

    Edit 1: You may be thinking of the older Pirelli Diablo Corsa's (without the Rosso), on the market about 5-6 years back to about 3 years ago. They're a completely different beast.
    Edit 2: There were also OEM and aftermarket versions of the old Pirelli Diablo Corsa's, which were also different from each other.
     
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  9. Darling has the ring of familiarity, the ex motorcycle courier in London scenario, quite a few got into racing through that doorway.........
     
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  10. @ FLUX - Then we are definitely talking about different tyres. Sorry - my bad. People everywhere went into raptures about the old one, and I never liked it. The new one - I don't think I've ever knowingly seen one. Sorry.

    @ Rattus - there are things I have wanted to do my whole life, and race bikes is one of them. Every time I look like being able to start, something comes up that puts the ki-bosh on it. It's been about 5 years now since I went to a track day, and I just got a new ZX14R. When I'm going to get to the first one, I don't know. As soon as I can, but not as soon as I want to.

    Terry O'Neil tells me he is organising a Race Your Mates challenge, at Wakefield, which is meant to be a very mild toe in the water thing, one step up from a track day, but not as organised or rule bound as the average club stuff. He tells me I could race a stock ZX14R in that if I want. It's a long way from Brisbane, or perhaps I should say it's a long way home to Brisbane if I f*ck up.
     
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  11. Sweetie ask yourself this, why would you want to punt a bike like that around wakey?...........I know why TON want's you to.
     
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  12. Yeah, I hear you.

    I need to go join Motorcycle Sportsmen and see what they're doing about club level stuff at Morgan Pk. QR would, you'd think, suit a 14, but I had enough trouble with the bumps in the braking areas on the futura, at about 210. What they'd be like at 250ish, I shudder to think. Morgan Park looks like fun. I really loved Darlington.
     
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  13. The thought of that crest as you come out from under the bridge at Morgan Park, on a, 14 scares me.
     
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  14. ... haven't ever been there yet. On the video I could find, it looks pretty fast, it is blind, it does seem to unweight the bike a bit, and there seem to be a couple of long low bumps on the exit. It could be a trick of the camera, but it doesn't look anywhere near as threatening as the crest at Darlington used to be.
     
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  15. Yep it is quite fast and the 14 doesn't like to be unloaded at decent lean. I haven't had much luck dialing that tendency, to go a bit mad and wash the front when it loads up again, out of the stock suspension. That said I am a road rider not a racer. I have changed the rear to a 55 profile and put heavier fork oil in the front without the chance to do much riding on the new setup. I think more weight on the front and better rebound damping should help with this and stop it pogoing so badly when transitioning into heavy braking as well. I have never been to Darlington so I can't compare sorry.
     
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  16. I've never raced, and I'm quite new to the 14, and I lack some recent experience. Having said that, pretty much any bike ... most of the bikes I've ridden ... get unsettled if you unload them enough at higher lean angles. The only real difference is where the threshold is. The crest just before the start / finish line at Darlington was a bit fearsome. Racers on superbikes and supersports, and a couple of kids on 125GP bikes were getting through it at about 160 ~ 170. I gradually worked up through the 140s and started to feel nervous at about 150. After about my fifth day there, I screwed up some courage and tried 155, and got the hugest weave / pogo / hula dance and really frightened myself. I went back to doing it at 150 and had no further problem. I did continue to improve my lap times, by learning to approach it a little quicker, brake before it rather than just back off, take a very conservative line, and get on the power again way earlier than the people who were rolling through much faster could do.

    What you would have to do to the bike suspension wise to get it better in a situation like that, I don't know. My instinct is that if you start messing with the setup too much, to try and address that one corner, you'll mess it up for everything else and still not fix the problem. I also don't quite know what you'd do as a rider, to help the bike out in that situation. I just sit there terrified, feeling I should do something but unable to think of anything I could do that would help.

    One thing I have noticed, and that is you don't want to be fighting the bike at moments like that. What I mean, is that if the bike has any tendency to stand up (and my 14 does - I don't know about yours) then as the suspension loads and unloads, you'd have to be constantly changing and varying the amount of hold-it-down pressure, or else it can pogo. The fix is to dial out the stand-up, so you're not needing to wrestle with the thing. For me, that's work in progress, but I seem to be heading in the right direction. More preload at both ends has helped, and changing to a Power R and Pure F seems to have helped a lot. Mind you, I think the 14 is going to turn the Power R into french soup rather quickly...
     
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  17. Nah, I am not setting it up for one type of corner but as I get faster I need to quicken up and tighten up the front end, hopefully this will help on this type of corner as well . I also ride an R1 and it is far less sensitive to unloading the bike at lean. All I do when it happens is try and get all my weight on the pegs and let the bike do it's thing, I can't think of anything else to do either, besides at least this way your arse can't bite chunks out of the seat.

    Yea, I just set it up the way I like then get a bit faster and have to set it up again but I am coming to the limits of the stock suspension I think.
     
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  18. The guy on sportsbike wrench, on the throttle tv, did a basic setup on a 14. He said the rear spring rate was about right for a 80 ~ 100kg rider, but the front was about right for a 50 ~ 60 kg rider. I know that the first adjustment I made was to wind up the front preload (in a series of steps) to nearly maximum. I weigh 70kg.
     
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  19. I found if it is past about 1.5-2 lines out it goes funny (I think it is topping out to easily past there and also there is not enough rebound damping available stock) so that is where I have it and it is not enough for me at 110ish kg so a re-spring is in order, then it really needs a re-valve as well. At my level the back end seems good enough though. Or I could try losing some weight.
     
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