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Turn 2 @ PI?

Discussion in 'Racing, Motorsports, and Track Days' started by N1GH7-R1D3R, Feb 9, 2006.

  1. Hey guys,

    Hey i'm only a newb so please don't flame me for this. I just watched a hotlap of PI and was wondering if turn 2 is what you would refer to as a proper double apex corner?? I loved watching them come belting round that left hander at the GP but never really thought about it. After watching the hot lap though for his technique i noticed he apexed it early, ran wider, then clipped the inside again whilst leaving the turn! Is that exactly what a double apex corner is?

  2. You could call turn 2 a double apex corner...
    I'd normally call it a pain in the butt though :)
  3. The Superbike School certainly refer to it as double apex - there are 2 turn-in points.
  4. Cool thanks guys! That's what i thought it was but i haven't been riding all that long so i thought i'd just clarify the terminology with the reality. Making sure i was talking about the right thing and what to look for. Cheers!
  5. Do a ride day my man, do a ride day, it's great fun, then you could tell many what turn two is.
  6. It depends. I did the Superbike School and they treat it as a double apex.

    You can quite happily treat it as a single apex though, and technically this is what it really is.

    I personally treat it as a single apex but you do come in somewhat close to the inside of the corner early on, not really apexing it, then as you hold your line you sort of drift out and then come back into the apex proper.

    All depends on how late you enter it, and whether or not you hang wide for while (like I try to do) and then come in and apex, or whether or not you apex it early, come out, then turn back in and apex it again.

    It really comes down to a question of style rather than it technically being a double apex.
  7. Here's a good document that discusses cornering at race-tracks, and has a good amount of content that applies for the road as well.

    It also specifically discusses the concept of "double apex" corners.


    Specifically the section called "The Mythical Double Apex"

    It's a long document, but definitely well worth the read if you're interested in working out the best lines to take through a track.
  8. I thought turn 2 had nine apexes :?:

    Oh wait that was only my shakey arse riding technique. :grin:

    I had trouble in turn 2 getting on the gas too late and not hard enough, but I only really had 5 dry laps that day to get the hang of it.
  9. That's when you are racing through there with twenty others. :p
  10. General rule of thumb. If you're not able to apply full power (or close to it) just before you hit the apex, you're taking the wrong line through the corner, at least for the modern point'n'squirt bikes.

    The idea of "best lines" have slowly been changing over the last 10-20 years as bikes get more and more powerful and point'n'squirt riding becomes more possible.

    Used to be a time when you had to hold the highest possible mid-corner speed to maximise your speed down the straight because the motors weren't powerful enough to compensate for someone entering a corner too slow.

    Nowadays with >>100rwhp, you can enter corners comparitively slower and very, very late, get the bike turned quickly ('cos you're travelling slower) towards the apex and the corner exit, and nail the throttle, and generally can get through the corner from entry to exit quicker than someone who is cranked over to the max the whole way and holding the highest possible mid-corner speed. Even if you don't get through the corner quicker, you'll generally be carrying a much higher corner exit speed (better for getting to the next corner sooner) as opposed to the person who is cranked right over and using all of their available traction for cornering, rather than for power/acceleration.

    The "Radical Type II/I" corner combo described in that document I linked to above is a direct example of a point-n-squirt cornering approach.
  11. Interesting.

    At the Superbike School, Steve Brouggy cautioned against trying to copy the lines taken by the MotoGP guys, and gave Turn 2 as an example.

    He reckoned you'll see them turn in and keep quite tight through the middle of the corner (rather than running wider after the first turn-in point, then tighter again after the second).

    Why? Because after the first turn-in they get on the gas to get the rear wheel spinning and keep the nose tucked into a tighter line. :shock:

    Not exactly your orthodox cornering line, but if you've got the power (and the skill) I guess it must work!
  12. Yes Gromit, then you have the super-radical dirt-track style of cornering through Turn 2 like the WSBK/MotoGP guys use. Only use that if you REALLY know what you're doing...

    Our good friend Anthony Gobert was a master of this style of riding, and is what made him so exciting to watch.
  13. Thanks for the link Cathcar. Very informative. It will be worth trying both the wide/late apex approach as well as the Radical I/II point and squirt next time I am down at the island. I see what each feels like.

    Now I only have to figure out Turn 1, Siberia and the Hayshed, Lukey Hieghts, and Turn 11. :grin:
  14. I found turn 2 at PI for me was my most inconsistent in terms of lines and entry and exit speeds. I rarely felt I really had everything correct after that turn.

    I have a new respect for the racers giving it 110% in that corner sitting beside the back wheel of the bike in front. It is a quick corner, visibility through the corner is very short, the camber out wide is significant (pushing you wider the further you go). If you don't get it right it very quickly becomes a 3 or 4 apex corner as you make corrections for your poor line and speed.
  15. I love turn 2. Get it right and the feeling is great. I've found the slower entry speed consistently leads to faster exit speeds, probably as I am not shedding any speed through the corner and able to get on the throttle earlier and through the corner.

    Having done Superbike School and read the books, I think Keith says that you don't want to be laid over with the bike in a turn for any longer than you have to be, as you cannot get on the throttle. So late entry, quick turn, straighten, late turn and throttle works well.

    Get turn 2 right and then the kink at turn 3 becomes really fast leading to good time down that section.

    Cathar, what did you get down to in the end? I got you in low 1:56's. Geez, some people are never happy are they ;)
  16. :WStupid:

    :grin: :grin: :grin:
  17. I got a few high 1:53's when my other friends there started timing me, 1:53.8 being the best.

    Typically doing 1:54.5->1:55.5 though.

    I know you asked me what mistakes I was making when we were in pit lane, and really I couldn't answer, 'cos it's just everywhere where I feel I could be doing better. I didn't feel like I was messing up any one thing really badly, just messing up everything in moderate amounts.

    Lots of identifiable room for improvement, but it'll really be something I'll need to work on, a section at a time, from here on.

    My biggest consistent screwups were not turning in late & wide enough - which affects the ability to drive out of corners (leaning over for too long), in almost every corner, and getting into the wrong gear (typically averaging a gear too high) for a half a lap at a time.

    Happy, and yet not happy. Happy that the times are coming down. Unhappy with my errors.
  18. 1:53 is nearly 3s better than the morning! That's pretty good by most peoples standards... :)

    I'm booked in for the 9th. Need new rear tyre now though, these ride days are killing the Visa card.

    I got down to 1:57's by the end, I was pretty happy with that.
  19. 9th March? Cool, I'll book that too then. What group did you book yourself into? At 1:57's you'd be running near the front of the pack in medium-fast.

    I had 7 bikes overtake me the whole day. 2 were under a Yellow Flag :evil: , 2 were guys legitimately faster than I (couldn't catch 'em), and 3 were the Superbike School guys out on the track for a bit of a play.

    If fact, of the two guys who were faster, they were so much quicker than everyone else on the track session that I suspect they were some of the "Fast" group pinching some extra track time in the "Medium-Fast" session, judging by their pace, easily 1m45's sort of speed.

    So yeah, if you're doing 1:57's, you should def. be in med-fast.
  20. Yep, booked in for med-fast, med-slow was giving me the **** at end, especially after we got told off about the close passing. I mean, if you can't close pass where's the fun :twisted: