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Trail braking: Transition off the brakes and onto throttle is a bit rough, where's the problem?

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' at netrider.net.au started by grue, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. I've started experimenting with trail braking, and the issue I'm running into is that as I release the brakes and roll on the throttle, it's just not as smooth as I would like.

    I'm not sure if it's an operator error situation, or if Honda's EFI programming in the early days (I've got a 2001 F4i) was a bit rough with the off/on throttle transition, btu what's a good way to try and practice this?


     
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  2. could have something to do with slack in your chain if its not smooth ocming on.

    I've always trailed my cbr and found that especially when theres a bit of slack in the chain it can help smooth up the transition as i get back on the gas.... however... i've been having a lot of trouble recently locking up the back by accident on the new bikes...
     
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  3. Leave some throttle on when braking, so that the drive train and rear suspension is still in "pushing the bike" mode, even though the front brake is actually slowing you down too??
     
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  4. You'll get the same drive train lash effect if you roll into the corner off the throttle, then roll it on. At some point, you have to crack the throttle to take up the slack, then roll it on if you don't want to unsettle the bike.

    Trailing with a cracked throttle is the go. You'll be reducing braking as your lean angle increases, and the feathered throttle will take care of the drive lash.
     
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  5. what i meant was i leave a tad of throttle on to keep the chain tight but counter it with the rear brake so the back wheel is effectively neutral or braking slightly... while most of the stopping gets done on the front brake.... then when i'm ready to roll onto the throttle the chains tight and the throttles already on (no play in the grip) so i ease off the rear brake and open the throttle more.... makes it really smooth....
     
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  6. Try doing that with a decent amount of weight shifting. How would you do all that on a right hander?
     
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  7. that's probably a big part of my zoolander problem (i can't turn right).... well i dont ENJOY turning right.
     
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  8. Try a different expression on your face. lol
     
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  9. I can't explain this: I hate turning right… but I'm better at it than I am at turning left.
     
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  10. The Daytona has a very snatchy on/off throttle and on the track and road I use workarounds similar to solving a drivetrain lash issue. Ie cracked throttle and a touch of rear brake.

    It's a bit of a pain in the arse really and I can't offer any solutions other than those mentioned a part form saying I sorta got used to it :/
     
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  11. dress to the right!
     
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  12. And btw if you're talking about track work, some people increase their idle speed. This may also help with your issue? (so you are effectively riding with cracked throttle when off throttle.) It works with a carby bike, have not tried it with an EFI bike, should be similar...
     
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  13. Good point! I use a high idle.
     
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  14. Semi on topic - what made you choose to use it, and what did you notice, Rob?
     
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  15. Keep practising bro, the transition needs to be quicker. There's is no pause between trail and gas. So go deep enough that when you crack you roll on at the same time to get the weight on the back immediately.

    If you wait between transition the bike will unsettle twice which is what I'm guessing you're experiencing and giving you the doubt.

    Go deep and do it once. The nose will lift but only once, be patient and commit and it will settle quickly. If your bike wants to continue to pogo after a solid attempt then the answer is suspension.

    There is another option but it's complex to be explained in written form. (I'm bored at the moment so if you want to go out for a play get in touch.) The front of the bike squats under trail which is the purpose in the first place, but you can bring the rear brake into the mix to keep the front down while you transition if you want. It stops the throttle snatch and keeps the weight on the front if you're in a tight one. But keep in mind it's going to squat the back as well so you need to balance the brakes and the weight shift off each other.

    Remember you've only got to figure how it works in one corner to manipulate it in the rest. Don't expect to get them all 'right' first go, just look for one and build from there.

    If you get it right once the craving for more will take over and you'll be hooked. I'm guessing you've got it right once.
     
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  16. Put the other glove on first. Will balance your cornering better for the day.
     
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  17. i got a PCIII for my R6 because the stock jetting was way lean to say the least,
    and that smoothed throttle response right out. chain maintenance helps as well of course, but i don't think your problem is the snatch lol. does it normally snatch during regular riding? cbr should be easy to ride.


    Trail braking is a rather advanced skill, you need to be VERY confident with your front brake before you try it! Practise with your front brake in straight line braking until you are comfortable with higher speeds, and stopping from high speed to low speed quickly, into corners.

    Most, if not all trailbraking is from the FRONT BRAKES, because if you are braking, the rear end of the bike has less traction than the front, the front has all the traction.

    trailbraking is simply regular hard front braking, but continuing into the corner, generally a gradual sweeping style corner where you can be smooth.

    all braking should commence before the corner as normal, and 'trail' off as you lean further into the corner, and balance your cornering traction with your braking traction (and rear wheel traction)

    your rear tyre will become very light on the road, so don't compromise your grip! get your gear changes down pat and i wouldn't touch the rear brake unless you are very skilled. sometimes i pull the clutch and let the rear end freewheel until the wheel speed settles down (after you brake).

    transition to throttle should be smooth and instantaneous after the bike settles into the corner.



    if you want to brake once you are already in the corner, you cannot trailbrake and must use your engine braking or rear brake alone, or tip the bike more (unless you straighten the bike up to brake hard, but this means you have ****ed up your braking before the corner and this is a MISTAKE)

    as with all riding, smoothness is the key. You will end up being comfortable hard front braking into a sweeper, you will be comfortable WITH THE REAR WHEEL IN THE AIR INTO THE sweeper. (this is a mistake, but you will not panic, but simply let the brake off a touch)



    that is where your riding should be at to try any trailbraking
     
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  18. After I saw this thread yesterday, I needed to google 'trail braking' as in my noobidity I have no clue what it is.

    Thanks dgmeister for clarifying it in your post so that noobs like me understand it!

    Which still leads me to the question: Why would I want to do that?
    From what I've learned is that during corner I want to take the weight OFF the front wheel by gradually increasing the throttle (or at least keeping it the same, but definitely NOT decreasing or even braking!). This sounds to my newbie ears as if someone hasn't managed to do enough braking beforehand and therefore has to continue braking while tipping into the corner (which I have done before - so I know it works, but every time I did it was because I was too stupid to take away excess speed before entering the corner).
    So again, why would I want to do that?

    With this being in the newer riders section, I do assume it is for road useage. It sounds as if using this 'technique' one would be able to enter a corner faster than one usually would (therefore the braking is still needed in order to make it), but why would I want that? I still don't understand.
     
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  19. nina. trail braking is not for new riders. its really a racing technique. it can be dangerous.
    when racers loose the front it's often because they've stuffed it up.

    but when you brake for a corner the front dips, then comes up when you release the brakes then dips again when you tip into the corner. amongst other things trail braking manages this so you're sort of holding the front compression constant (and it changes the steering geometry as the forks are compressed). thats my amateurish understanding anyway.
     
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  20. Excellent, thanks for clarifying.
    The reason why I do not understand why I would want to do that, is because there is no reason for me to want to do that ;)

    I was confused by the discussion about something that does the opposite of what makes riding safe. With it being an advanced racing skill, it makes sense now (and I'll stop trying to read this thread ;)).
     
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