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N/A | National Track day advice sought

Discussion in 'Racing, Motorsports, and Track Days' started by cb rookie, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. I'm new to track riding, and after doing my 2nd track day on the Daytona 675, I'm getting some lean angle, which is nice, though I'm concerned about how much my road tyres can handle (Metzeler M5s).

    I've attached a pic - and it's not uncommon for me to not only drag a knee, but my toes as well. I was ok with it at first because my boots have toe sliders, but I've worn through them, and into the sole now. I want to do another track day next week, but I dunno if I'll have much of a chance to get new boots before then.
    SO all in all, a few questions:
    1. Should I investigate some track tyres? I run Metzeler M5s, and they feel alright, but I'm no expert. I'd also need to look at changing them frequently, as my bike is used for commuting too. I've seen spare wheels online for about 3,000 for a set
    2. How much of a difference would some adjustable rearsets make? In the pics i've seen, the pegs look to be in the exact same position as stock.
    3. Should I be changing my body position for hanging off to avoid dragging my toes? IF so, how?
    4. Are tyre warmers a waste of time when running road tyres?

    PS - My Q about the tyres stems from a comment made by some folks in the pits at the last track day, saying my tyres are road, and that Softer compound tyres are the way. I'm a noob with the tyre compound stuff - but the Metzeler site indicates the use of varying tension bands to eliminate the use of different compounds in the tyre. Is this an equivocal trade off, or just marketing spin?
  2. Mate I had the same problem (and exactly the same bike).

    If you put rearsets on it will fix your problem. But! That's not an excuse for bad form, I put rearsets on my Daytona straight away and rode with my foot the same way as you, never had a problem.

    I started taking some other bikes with stock 'sets and wore through my boots and ruined them.

    That's when I decided to fix my foot position. Yes you ride with your ball of your foot on the peg but it can go much higher. I'll post a video up for you.

    I reckon get your form right on the stock rearsets then when you've mastered it get nice new rearsets and boots and you'll never have a issue again :)

    Edit: to answer your other question I reckon tyre warmers are a waste for true road tyres, I think it's unessesary headache. I've got a track and a road bike, when I do a session on the road bike I don't use warmers. My track tyres require warmers do I use them.

    I don't know much about the M5s but aren't they more of a sports touring tyre?
  3. This is a vid I made after I recked my boots. I was on a cbr250rr. The first part of the vid is on my right side, the position is pretty good. The second part is showing the left side and I went back to my old ways and was putting my toe off too much.

    When I push the limit of that bike on the track I get knee and toe down still but it's still giving it the best chance possible. The way I guage it is if my toe touches before my knee I'm doing it wrong. If I get knee then toe then I'm just out of clearance.
  4. Thanks for that! So it seems I need to keep my toes further towards the bike. I'll have a crack on my next track day. That video highlighted it for me!

    As for the tyres - do you use warmers on track tyres because they are slower to warm up? or because warming a road tyre wont be as effective as warming a track tyre?

    How do you find the comparison between the 2 types?
    The M5s are an 'ultra sport' tyre, and are just below the marketing area of the K3 track tyres they make, as highlighted by this lovely diagram attached.
    I think you may have the Z8s in mind when you mention sports tourer tyres.

    Here's what a metzeler sales dude emailed me :
    "I would suggest the Sportec M5 Interact's would be best suited for your needs. The Racetec K3's are a fantastic tyre that warm up exceptionally quick & grip extremely well but they are really a performance driven tyre meaning you would sacrifice a good amount of mileage on them.
    The M5's will stand up to the poorer conditions much better than the K3's as well. The M5's will still warm up at a good rate & provide a great level of grip in all conditions due to their high silica compound. Another important factor is that they'll be a better every day tyre for you while still having that little bit extra for those spirited rides."

    This was in response to me asking about the wet and dry grip of the M5. In that email, I didn't mention track days though.

    Attached Files:

  5. #5 UDLOSE, Dec 13, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    I've ran 2 types of track tyres before - Pirelli Supercorsa SC (not SP) and now Metzeller K2 slicks. They both state in their tech specs that they require warmers set to 70-80 degrees cellcus. When I come back in they are just as hot, they literally burn your hand when you touch them. If you went out slowly they would tear up and slide around all over the place but it may not be possible to get them up to temp (might end up in the gravel first). Where as even high performance road tyres require some temp to work well they still work to an acceptable level when stone cold. With the slicks the first lap is still very scarey because they've lost heat between coming off the warmers and getting out onto the track. Where as on a full road tyre I'd take the first turn slowly then go practically flat out after that.

    I think the M5s sound like they are a sporty road tyre but not a road/track tyre specifically. Like the Pilot Powers by Michillion, they talk them up but they aren't really track tyres and are only good up to a point.

    Here's a video of Wayne Gardener riding a CBR1000 road bike around EC, practicing for a charity event. He's running Pilot One tyres which are their higher end road tyre. He still sets decent lap times (in the 1.40s on the original track from memory), but watch him as he pulls onto the straights just smoking the rear tyre up on the exit, its asking a bit too much of the tyres. But at the same time it prooves that its definitely possible to get a stock road ride with "decent" road tyres and set a good pace

  6. From my understanding, the more touring oriented, the quicker to get to operating temperature but less grippy when pushed. If you're sliding around or breaking traction on your current tyres then it's time to go to slicks. I don't use warmers when I track my road bike, just parking it in the sun and some common sense in the first re lap is enough.

    Slicks are designed to operate at high temperature but have limited life - the warmers are important not just to get them to operating temperature but to keep them at that temperature for the whole day. Reduces the heat cycles to give you longer tyre life. If you have slicks, it's important you use warmers.

    One other thing occurred to me is which track are you on? It may be that you should discuss you lines with a track instructor/marshall because you may be spending more time on hard lean than necessary - Udlose's clip is good to demonstrate posture and lean but it's rare to be on the edge of your tyre for so long on track.

    My 2c.
  7. some valuable advice, much appreciated! This is what I was after. Thanks to both of you! I think I'll do my last track day for the year on the road tyres, and look into the K3s when I get a bit more serious next year. Is it worth buying spare rims? and if so, I should be avoiding the cheapies on ebay right? The ones form HK for about $300

    All may track days have only been Queensland Raceway, though I want to do Lakeside next year.
  8. I can't say about the spare rims on ebay, you may end up with rubbish or snag a bargain. The only other thing with slicks is that if the track is wet or even damp, you may not be allowed out, on treaded tyres you can at least have a punt if the weather turns on you.

    I've never been to QR but I understand it's not a very interesting track. I have been to Morgan Park and it is a great circuit that will suit the 675.

    It looks like you're headed towards a dedicated track bike :)
  9. Haha, yeah, it's a bit bland the old QR. more of a horsepower track, and ofcourse, my daytona is left behind in some of the straghts. I think you're right about the track bike though! I had heard about the slicks and wet weather thing, and hence why I'd only looka t the K3s at this stage, still have tread, just road legal, and is good for club racers according to the reviews (and i'm not at club racer standard yet!). The M5s are meant to be pretty good in the we, which is why I got them in the first place, so I can have some confidence on a wet track.

    Its also why I want some spare wheels, so I'm not tyre changing at the track! that'd be a nightmare i reckon. And I really wanna keep using M5s on the road - race tyres suck cos their mileage is shit.

    I wonder if you know of anywhere else to buy rims? Ebay has the $300 ones, and the only others i've seen were carbon fibre for about $3500 a set.
  10. I just looked up those ebay wheels, I've never seen them. I've been looking for a spare set of rims for my 600 track bike so i can go to the drags etc (don't wanna go on track slicks).

    I wouldn't risk those things though, for that money ($300 a rim) you should be able to get OEM used wheels from the wreckers.
  11. yeah, thats what i thought. I'm just not sure if wheels are susceptible to minor damage the naked noob eye can't detect?
  12. They could be. In both cases they could take more weights to balance.
  13. yeah, I think i'll look into it a bit more. thanks for you help though, been really beneficial!
  14. dude....is that glendenning?
  15. If I told you I'd have to kill you Mav ;)
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Get slicks!

    I was using road tyres for a while on my track bike. Dragged knee no probs on road tyres but I've never had toe issues. Must be my foot positioning because my pegs scrape without my toe touching the floor :)

    Slicks are awesome not just for the lean angle ability, but I found my braking ability was a lot better and being able to tip into a corner at a faster pace and having confidence that front is not going to fold was awesome too!
  17. Yeh your right about the slicks mate. I just used them for the first time a month ago. I went heaps faster and was starting to fade the brakes from being able to nail them so hard. I've ordered some race pads, that sound take care of it
  18. So I adjusted my foot position on the pegs, and was able to ride faster through the corners yesterday at the track. Thanks for the help! But another query - if you swap between the same set of tyres repeatedly, will it wreck the bead (as in stretch it)?
  19. I'd not flip tires personally and just replace them.
  20. I use to change the guys tyres over for a sneaky thirty bucks on a Saturday morning before I did class. Never had a bead let go or tear.
    If I flogg a set of decent roadies they go a blueish opaic oyster colour. Then get fine hair cracks that widen with a little use.
    I like the Pirrelli corsa road tyre on the track. At least it can take the 6 laps without de-laminating. Metz are good too.... PP's........... pffffght never liked them