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To Allow Ducati 1200 cc or Not to Allow, That is the ?

Discussion in 'Racing, Motorsports, and Track Days' started by VtrElmarco, Apr 19, 2007.

  1. Ducati have recently annouced that they are going to throw a hissy fit and pack up the coffee machine if they are not allowed to race there proposed 1200 cc v-twin against the boring arse 1000 cc Japanese in-line fours in the 2008 season. They wish to develop a 1188 cc version that they can also sell to gullable Ducati owners for $ 430 000 dollars a bike (Along with the exclusive hand numbered key rings)

    There current Ducati 999-F07's are wound up like hand grenades, fully of expensive stuff like unobtanium and go-fast metal. Rumours of just under 200 Hp are bandied around, but Ducati is claiming this is the upper ceiling for the current motor.

    The generic Japanese in-line 4's are in a much lower state of tune, yet are still able to throw out well over 200 Hp, especially under the magical hands of the uber tuners Ten Kate.

    What I would like to know from our learned Netriders (Ha Ha) is should World SBK allow Ducati a displacement advantage (Albiet in a lower state of tune) to compete against the Japanese?

    I already have formed somewhat of an opinion, but would like to see what other people think.

    (Aprilia are set to annihilate the opposition in 2008 with there proposed 1000 cc V-4 superbike, not that I am biased!)
  2. Yeah, why not? Just allow the 4 cyl bikes to run without restrictors and allow them the same level of freedom as the Ducatis have, if they're gonna allow Ducati a capacity increase.

    For the first time in how long, we are finally seeing anything but the Ducati Cup. And Ducati can't whinge either. Its bikes are still heading up the pointy end of the grid. Shit, look at Xaus on a "customer" bike last week.
  3. Nope!

    It's a 1000cc class, if they don't make a bike that fits in the class, sorry guys, it's been nice.
  4. Awesome!

    I'm not mechanically minded but from what i understand vtwins have more torque lower down and inline4s have a better top end?

    So really it depends on the track their on. Twistier tracks better for vtwins and faster tracks better for the inlines4s?

    It'd be interesting to see how a 1200 vtwin compares to a 1000 inline4....so i'm all for it!! :)
  5. So let 'em race the customer Desmosedici instead! :grin:
  6. It makes sense. 100cc twins used to race against 750cc 4s, 600 4s raced against 750 twins. Why not allow a 1200cc twin in order to level the playing field and get the bikes back closer to stock bike racing.

    The SBK competition is all about streetbikes in race trim, the current levels of tuning they put into the twins takes those bikes out of peoples' reach, whereas they can buy something very close to the i4 superbikes for under 20 grand and be riding what Corser's out there pulling a fast lap on. That's the spirit of Superbikes. If the twins are getting tweaked right up the date before they race, that's against the spirit of it for me.

    So yeah, let 'em run it, because at the end of the day the best thing about the SBK contest is that it leads to us being able to buy mroe and more f*ck-off powerful roadbikes. And here's cheers to THAT!
  7. yes to compete in the same class they need expensive metals in the motors, there hole point is that with the cost of these metals and components they have to put in, it is hugely expensive compared to inline fours all they want to do is lower there coasts and still be competitive.
    Heres an example of the costs these teams spend, Chris's suzuki motogp team spends $30 million a year just to move the team from race to race that does not include wages or bike devalopment or the bikes, so they are talking huge bucks.
  8. Answer to your last comment 1st... I sure hope so!!! :twisted:

    I think they should be allowed to with the restrictions they have proposed as it would bring them back in line. The Jap manufactuers know you cannot compete with a 2cyl vs a 4cyl unles they use very exotic materials. I think the point is that if they can compete at a lower cost you will see more Ducati's in the field as currently the bikes are to expensive as customer bikes.
  9. Provided, of course, that the 4 cyl bikes can have unrestricted induction systems and the same freedoms that Ducati currently has for its engine mods.

    Either that or make them all stock, like Superstock, for example. What they sell to the public is what's allowed for racing. Allow camshaft changes, suspension, exhausts and minor valve work to get some more herbs from them. Let 'em focus more on tuning than outright mods.
  10. What is behind the reasoning to allow them more capacity anyway :roll:

    Should be as simple as set a capacity limit and "do what you want with it". Then sit back and see progress!

    If twins ain't competitive, it ain't competitive :roll:
  11. I think the reasoning is that whilst the Ducati is competitive it is cost prohibitive and they want to lower the costs as well as race what they sell. We all know that twins have been behind the thou's in the street bikes for a long time (not that you need all those horses the jap thou's have anyway) which is why Ducati wanted to make a 1200cc. at the end of the day they know they can't charge a premium for a bike that is quite a lot slower than a new jap thousand. They also believe that the Superbike class is about racing what you sell so they want to race the 1200. Not sure which came frist the race or the street bike but i suspect it was a bit of both. Personally if they can get the rules right and put a restritor on them (and there are many types they can put on them) i would like it allowed. Heaven knows we don't want twins to disappear, they are such great fun, sounds good etc etc and even if you don't like them then we want them for diversity.. oh and did i mention the sound? :LOL:
  12. Ducati should be allowed to run the 1200cc bikes, but every manufacturer should be playing by the same modification rules, and every manufacturer should be adhering to the same minimum weight as everyone else.

    Right now, it's basically Ducati producing a V2 version of their MotoGP tech in their F07, while every other manufacturer is basically just tuning their stock road bikes.

    We all know that 2-cyl bikes of the same capacity make less power than I-4's. It's pure and simple engineering fact. The advantages to V2's though is that they are lighter (they should be) and narrower (lots less wind-drag at high speeds), and have better traction ability on the edge, although there's nothing stopping other manufacturers from homologating big-bang versions of their 4's either. This naturally means that there has to be some sort of balance. I always thought that the 1000cc V2's vs the 750cc I4's was a mismatch. V2's don't need a 33% capacity advantage, that was WAY too much. Here though, we're talking about just a 20% capacity correction, so it's not like the bad old days of the 750cc I4 era.

    It's really about marketing though. Ducati no longer make a 999cc bike, yet they are only allowed to race in WSBK by supplying a prototype bike that they no longer sell. What's in it for them? Why should Ducati continue pumping money into a homologation racing model putting a bike on the grid that they don't sell? Is any other manufacturer doing that? How does that help Ducati's sales anyway?

    Ducati is a manufacturer that markets V2's. That's its signature motor design. In the marketplace Ducati saw that the only way it could compete with the Japanese factories was to produce a larger capacity V2 of lesser tune such that it no longer costs an arm and a leg for a consumer to buy. Ducati have made a real effort to even the playing field in the market-place.

    In WSBK though, it's not level. All this pish-posh about strict 1000cc limits on capacities is just rubbish. We as spectators want to see hard fought close racing by all the major manufacturers. We as consumers want to have a choice in what bikes we buy, and what engine configurations we would like. Why should some racing code to dictate what is tantamount to market based penalties to a company that is competitive in all other respects.

    I say let the boffins sort out the exact capacity rules.

    Make the state of tune the same.
    Make the weight the same.
    Make the race one based on major homologated manufactured bikes.
    Adjust the rules for capacity per cylinder numbers as required to keep the playing field even on the track, and as a reflection of the marketplace.

    After all, that IS what WSBK is about.

    Just my 2c.
  13. Oh FFS, let them run it. Do we really want it to be like V8 racing where the only difference between the cars is the drivers aftershave?
  14. Cathar - I agree with you, it should be about handlebar to handlebar racing and SBK has providing us with plenty of it over the year so i hope they get it right. I was a bit unsure about your comments about the Moto GP tech in the 07? I thought that they still needed to play by the rules and weight minimums?
    Also why do you say that twins should be lighter? I didn't think that they had ever been lighter than the jap fours? Weight is a very difficult subject though i guess as the jap manufacturers weigh each part then add them together yet some of the Euro companies measure the bike with fork oil, brake fuild etc sans fuel and oil. Not sure if that is still the case but it was a while ago.
    Just curious though as i always thought that twins seem to be heavier, never really known why but i though it had to do with the size of the engine castings etc? It not unique to just the Italian twins take the SP1/2, TLR and other jap bikes which were heavy also.
    Incitatus - spot on!
  15. Without knowing the engineering truth, it does seem as though Ducati are offering something in return.

    It's funny though them threatening to leave. That would leave just:

    MV Augusta
    Aprilia (from 2008)

    As opposed to 2003 when there was:


    Seriously, I am sure that Ducati will be permitted their exemption but we don't want to go back to the bad old days when it was Ducati Vs Ducati. Do we?
  16. Well Ducati have said they don't just want to add 200cc and be done with it, they want to bring their level of prep done to the same as ther 4s, so I see no reason not to. As has already been mentioned by the sounds of it the 999 is pretty bloody far from a proddy 999 so this can only be good.
  17. MotoGP tech comment was a passing reference to the prototype nature of the F07, using many metals and materials not used in the production model. Of all the bikes on the grid, the F07 would be the most modified from stock. While I may be wrong, I do seem to recall that Ducati do have a weight advantage (in the rules) currently over the I4's. The playing field is not level, and Ducati are using expensive materials to cut weight down. Makes the weights all even.

    Just because someone didn't build a lighter example, doesn't mean that it's not possible. Not counting the gearbox & clutch, the V2 engines are narrower, being almost half the width of an I4 engine. The crank is not as long, the total of the cam-shaft lengths are shorter, and so on. Ducati use Desmo though, which adds some extra heft and weight, and they use a tubular steel frame, as opposed to an aluminium twin-spar.

    You're talking about the general marketplace now. In general I do agree with you - the stating of weights in marketing needs to be cleaned up. IMO, all bikes should be advertisied with their measured fully assembled and all liquids, excepting fuel only, weights.

    With the Jap road/racing V2's, their road-going versions were overweight pigs. They over-engineered much of what was on the bikes for general road use. Much of what was on the bikes when sold in show-room condition was all pulled off and replaced for racing. The Jap V2's never really benefitted from a hot marketplace driving development. They were really more just homologated bikes with no real focus on sales, but with the focus on racing the frames + motor, and replace everything else put on for road-use.
  18. I don't think that it ever did make a 999cc engine. It's been 998cc since the 996R model (the 996S and plain 996 were 996cc).

    Rest of your comments though, were spot on. Where's the spirit of production based racing if the race bikes are not available on the street, that only 2 bikes of a specific example are raced and then only available to factory riders, that customers such as Ruben Xaus's team has to race "hand me downs" or lower spec bikes.

    I was surprised though, at some of the technology that these and the Jap bikes have - traction control, for example, that the road going variants don't have. Although the GSX-1000 K7 has an engine mode selector so the rider can change the power characteristics on the fly (I'd probably have it set to "woose" if I had one).
  19. The rules are quite loose, witness the replacement swingarm on the Blade. The thing about the Ducati is the level of tune required to make it competitive. Apparently the engine rebuilds are frequent and expensive on the Duks, whereas the Jap 4's are far less expensive to build and maintain. What Ducati are saying is that in order to be competitive they have to make an engine in such a high level of tune that it becomes uneconomical to race.