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Those Victorian search without due cause laws

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by jirf88, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. So this was discussed at length while back, but I noticed on the TV this morning that the cops in vic were actually starting to enforce (abuse to follow, I'm sure) these laws. Footscray train station was apparently used as the first location for the searches.

    All you Victorians, whats the public feeling down there? Sunrise was trying to tell me that most people are OK with this, but I don't buy it for a second.
  2. I know of two NRers that will say "if you have done nothing wrong you'll have nothing to hide". But they surely have never read 1984. Watch for them...here they come...
  3. I've been saying that these increasing 'security' laws are the thin edge of the wedge since 9/11 (which made a convenient excuse)... the wedge is starting to get thicker.
  4. I am Victorian and I have no issue with it. I don't carry weapons or other prohibited items so I am just another Netrider who goes along with the 'nothing to hide' line. I do actually have faith that the Vic police can make an educated guess as to who may be more likely to be carrying weapons and target those who appear more likely to be carrying said weapons, rather than normal mums, dads and kids going about their business! And yes I know some poor innocent young guys who like to dress like U.S gangsta rappers will be unduly searched, so what, a minute gone out of their lives!

    Yes I have read 1984 and I might remind you it was fictional! Makes a good start for yet another "our rights are being eroded" conspiracy theory though! As the same author said in another book, "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others!"
  5. A minute and possibly their dignity. Strop searches are on the menu if Mr. Plod deems it necessary. As much as you might not mind being scanned and frisked, I'm almost certain you would object to being strip searched.
  6. 'Fictional' is irrelevant. The works illustrates what has happened MANY times in real life.

    And also included in the laws should then be right to target certain ethnic groups, religions, motorcycle riders etc? Cool.

    If a policeman knock on your door and said you've been selected for a random house search for drugs and weapons, would you believe that is reasonable? 5 police spending an hour going through your entire house and personal belongings looking for anything illegal. If you have nothing to hide, you should therefore welcome this? Somehow I think you would not. Would you ask "why me?" - ie would you expect the police to have 'just cause'?

    People are often unable to recognise the broader ramifications of changes to the law or trends in changes to the law. These are what we disagree with it's not that we disagree with disarming the community.
  7. yep another right gone....treating the whole public as crimes, and you have to prove you aren't
  8. Public property VS private property. The police are required to announce what areas are being targeted. Here is an idea, if you have illegal items, DONT take them to the train station :eek:

    To be stripped searched, you are required to be taken back to the station, to be taken back unwillingly, you require to be arrested. To arrest a police officer need to show that he had a reasonable suspicion that you HAD commited a crime. Not really space for abuse of that system more than is already being used
  9. If "Planet of the Apes" is anything to go by, do you support Killing of all Primates (apart from humans) To prevent an "uprising" of sorts?

  10. So if I disagree to a strip search, I can be asked to go to the police station. Refusing to do so will get me arrested on the grounds that refusing one of these searches is a crime. I'll be strip searched anyway and now I have a criminal record also.

    And all because I wanted to retain some sense of dignity?
  11. Yeah, I can see how you would draw that conclusion from what I posted :roll: That's some perverse logic.
  12. So what happens when I innocently walk into a railway station not knowing that this has been previously declared a 'declared area' and then the police say "we are going to search you" and I say "I refuse, as is my right under the human rights act in victoria" and they say "if you refuse we will arrest you".

    This act needs to be challenged in court by someone refusing a search.
  13. As I said - it's the gradual erosion we are talking about.

    - Before you had to have just cause.
    - Now you don't, but hey - they'll tell you what area they'll target.
    - Then they may say they need some unannounced blitzes to catch the baddies (that's not a huge step).
    - Then....?

    This isn't whacked out conspiracy talk, it's a concern for individual rights and privacy, innocent until proven guilty, having to submit without consent, more powers to an individual policeman on the ground without opportunity to object, Mabo, the vibe etc etc
  14. If you've ever been to Footscray station be afraid, be very afraid, there are some very unsavoury types who have done a lot wrong down there. Police in that area should shoot the perps as soon as they find the weapons on them. A machete was taken off one dude yesterday despite the highly publicised event going on. All up 15 weapons were confiscated from that station in broad daylight!! What does that tell you?
  15. I have an 18YO son who doesn't carry knives, guns or a machette. He is a respectable, decent bloke.

    He visits the City, Crown and nightclubs often. I am deeply concerned about the escalation of random violence in Melbourne. not so much the number of incidents, but the nature of these incidents. There is a growing number of youth in Melbourne who do not give a seconds thought to using weapons as a first resort and apparently KILL people without cause or hesitation.

    These deaths and the weapon carriers are not a media fiction nor a political ruse, it's really happening and it is really getting out of hand. To say that the pollies are simply using this as a convenient excuse is simply wrong. I believe we have gone past the point of protecting everyone's right to freedoms in this regard, the broader ramifications of the foolhardy notion that we can just sit on our hands,do nothing and this will all just go away is that more people will become victims of senseless violence and MURDER.

    Society (Govt) has to take action on this issue. Just pissing on the current efforts smacks of armchair expert syndrome. How about proposing some solutions instead.

    There is no reason why anyone should be walking the streets with a knife, machette or even screwdriver and random searches for these is in response to the degredation of our society.
  16. The only way of completely eliminating these things (let's assume for one second it's actually possible) would be to have the powers completely control every element of everybody's life. Tracking people's movements, documenting all communications, constant searches, increased laws. This leads to decreased freedom.

    I do not believe the end justifies the means.

    I don't believe it is worth sacrificing freedom for 'safety'. Howver, the notion of living in a completely safe society is a false one anyway, humans have violent, wrongdoing tendencies. So in the end, all the extra powers will decrease my freedom, and we will still not be living in a safe, corruption-free society.

    And we will ask 'was it worth it?'.

    And PS people have been talking about the 'degradation of society' at EVERY period in history. Humans are humans.

    Edit: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
  17. Yeah, it did look a little rough Smee. But I still don't see how that makes it OK to violate their rights.

    Dazzler: lets pretend your son is your daughter for now. Now lets pretend that you get a phone call from her one Friday night. She says that she is at the police station, under arrest, because she refused to comply with the search laws. She says the police want to strip her down and perform a cavity search.

    What do you do?
  18. So we've gone from needing "just cause"... to "just 'coz".
  19. everyone who got arrested at Foostcray yesterday deserves to be. not for carrying knives but for being criminally stupid. the police advertised what they were planning for a week beforehand, and these people STILL carried knives on the day of the searches.
  20. Sorry, but cavity searches aren't covered by this law, so that is irrelevant. Why are you trying to turn a logical debate into an emotional one?

    Decreased freedom to do what?
    You are talking about TARGETED violence. This law aims to remove random violence. You will never remove targeted violence.