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This I believe

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by hornet, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. Eric Baume, the 1950s Sydney radio commentator used to sign off his editorial with that phrase.

    In the last couple of years many threads on all sorts of subjects have drfited into discussion of Christianity, religion and spirituality. Happily, unlike Harley threads, we have managed to argue and disagree with a remarkable degree of courtesy. Maybe, just maybe, a thread speicifically on the subject might be both useful, and enjoyable.

    So let me start by stating what I believe, and briefly, why.

    I believe first of all, that any discussion on the subject of Christianity that ignores the history and teaching of the Bible, is a waste of time. A CB-250 workshop manual and a GSX-1400 workshop manual might both be on the same general subject, but both are useless when applied to the wrong bike. The manual of the Christian faith is the Bible, all 66 books of it. So if we are to discuss the Christian faith, it must be within the confines of what the Bible records of it, and teaches about it, not from the ideas of the wider world, or even experience.

    Growing out of that, I further believe that the Bible is a trustworthy and accurate record of what God has done, what man has done, and what has happened to the universe, and especially, this world. I believe the original words were given by an Almighty God to trusted men who wrote down the words as given, and that generations of men who believed in these words painstakingly copied and compared copies to ensure that what we have today is what was originally written (albeit in our own language).

    So I believe in the Bible, I believe the men who wrote and passed on the Bible, and I believe what the people IN the Bible, SAID about the Bible. What did they say?

    Well, all the Jews, from Abraham to Christ and beyond to 70AD and the scattering of the nation of Israel, believed the Genesis record of creation to be literally true. The Psalmists and the poets and prophets of Israel believed in the Genesis record. Jesus Christ believed and preached the Genesis record of creation (unsurprisingly, since He was God and particpated in the event!!). The Apostles and the early church believed in and taught and enshrined in the creeds, the Genesis record of creation.

    Shall we start from there?
  2. do you believe that people lived to 900 yrs old as the bible states?
  3. All the over 900 year age stats are for the era before Noah's flood, when the world was a very different place than it is now. There were no seasons, according to the Bible text, and the best description I could give was that there was a uniform, rain-forest like climate all over the world. But, yes, even though we do not see such things in our ages, it should not be considered a barrier to that having happened in other ages.

    They, on balance, could not have conceived of us flying aeroplanes or riding motorcycles, but we do both, and more :).
  4. we have managed to argue and disagree with a remarkable degree of courtesy

    except in the above case, which brings us to the doctrine of original sin, and its unpleasant consequences :LOL: :LOL:
  5. dazza, i have to say that if we (i.e the non-believers) are permitted to post that we do not believe the bible to be true, why isn't Hornet600 permitted to post that be believes it IS true?

    he's not trying to convert you, he's just saying "i believe it"

    let the man have his say, you can always just not read this thread.

    Paul - recently a born again male was preaching in the mall here in Adelaide. i thought he was very brave, being that he was 21 years old & telling everyone standing around he was a virgin. In fact I even told him "i don't believe mate, but you're pretty brave to stand up & preach to a bunch of friday night shoppers!" and I shook his hand.

    anyway one argument he was having with a heckler from the crowd went like this:

    bloke holds bible up "This is the word of God"
    heckler "How do you know that?"
    bloke "Becuase it says so in the bible"
    heckler "but how do you know it's the word of god?"
    bloke "cause it says it is"
    heckler "but how can you believe that? how do you know some guy didn't just get drunk & write 'this is the word of god?'"
    bloke "cause the bible says it's the word of god"

    i found it to be a very circular argument because other than saying "because it says so" the bloke couldn't explain how he knows the bible is the word of god.

    For you Paul, is it just faith that you belive it to be the word of god? is there a better way to explain how you 'know' it to be true?

    belief= something that you whole heartedly believe to be true
  6. Dance, Monkeys, Dance
    by Ernest Cline

    Orbiting the sun at about 98 million miles
    is a little blue planet
    and this planet is run
    by a bunch of monkeys.

    Now, the monkeys don't think of
    themselves as monkeys.
    They don't even think of themselves as animals
    And they love to list all the things
    that they think
    separate them from the animals:
    Opposable thumbs, self awareness . . .
    They'll use words like
    Homo Erectus and Australopithecus.

    You say Toe-mate-o,
    I say Toe-motto.
    They're animals all right.
    They're monkeys.
    Monkeys with high-speed digital fiber optic technology,
    but monkeys nevertheless.

    I mean, they're clever.
    You've got to give them that.
    The Pyramids, skyscrapers, phantom jets,
    the Great Wall of China.
    That's some pretty impressive shit . . .
    for a bunch of monkeys.

    Monkeys whose brains have evolved
    to such an unmanageable size
    that it's now pretty much impossible
    for them stay happy for any length of time

    In fact, they're the only animals
    that think they're supposed to be happy.
    All of the other animals can just be.

    But it's not that simple for the monkeys.

    You see, the monkeys are cursed with consciousness
    and so the monkeys are afraid.
    So the monkeys worry.
    The monkeys worry about everything,
    but mostly about what all the other monkeys think.
    Because the monkeys desperately want to fit in
    with the other monkeys.

    Which is hard to do,
    because a lot of the monkeys seem to hate each other.
    This is what really separates them from the other animals.
    These monkeys hate.
    They hate monkeys that are different.
    Monkeys from different places,
    monkeys who are a different color-

    You see, the monkeys feel alone.
    All six billion of them.

    Some of the monkeys pay another monkey
    to listen to their problems.

    Because the monkeys want answers
    and the monkeys don't want to die.
    So the monkeys make up gods
    and then they worship them.
    Then the monkeys argue
    over whose made-up god is better.
    Then the monkeys get really pissed off
    and this is usually when the monkeys decide
    that it's a good time to start killing each other.

    So the monkeys wage war.
    The monkeys make hydrogen bombs.
    The monkeys have got their whole fcuking planet
    wired up to explode.
    The monkeys just can't help it.

    Some of the monkeys play to a sold out crowd . . .
    of other monkeys.

    The monkeys make trophies
    and then they give them to each other.
    Like it means something.

    Some of the monkeys think
    that they have it all worked out.
    Some of the monkeys read Nietzsche
    The monkeys argue about Nietzsche
    without giving any consideration to the fact
    that Nietzsche
    was just another fcuking monkey.

    The monkeys make plans.
    The monkeys fall in love.
    The monkeys fcuk
    and then they make more monkeys.

    The monkeys make music
    and then the monkeys DANCE
    Dance, monkeys, dance.

    The monkeys make a hell of a lot of noise.
    Exhibit A
    Monkey making noise.
    And when he's done,
    five other randomly selected monkeys
    will rate this monkey's noises
    on a scale from one to ten.
    And at the end of the night,
    they add all the numbers up
    to see which monkey made the best noises.

    As you can see . . .
    these are some fcuked up monkeys.

    These monkeys are at once the ugliest
    and most beautiful creatures on the planet.

    And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys.
    They want to be something else.
    But they're not.

    Cheers :cool:
  7. Dazza can’t help himself, he is like a piece of chewing gum stuck on the underside of Moses’ leather sandal.
  8. the only thing thats inconceivable is what the world was before the big bang.

    thanks to DNA [life building blocks] we can see that life forms range dramatically in appearance and funtions. a cockroach has its skeleton on the outside of its body [exoskeleton] and breaths thru its legs. A tree has similar DNA code to us to give us an idea of just how diverse life forms can be.

    but a life span of over 900 couldnt be possible at all. here are just 3 reasons why.

    1) evolution is a slow process that works in the direction of improvement, not distruction.

    2) DNA [aka 'the central dogma'. u gunna h8 me for that!] has a self destruct button 'cancer' so if you dont die of anything else, cancer will get all of us. 1 side effect is early onset cancer.

    3) the human body shows no evidence of such resistance to aging. 900 years is a whopper life span that has never existed in any species. when did they loose their baby teeth? when did pubity happen for them? was it at the 300 year mark?
    come on paul, it's ok to say some things in the bible are not apt.

    it was written by PEOPLE and transcribed soooo many times.

    people make mistakes, people make crap up, people fail to get things right against their intension to understand correctly. you cant be that trusting of a person who is no better than any other person.

    it's not like it was written by god.

    people were more gulible back then and over the years we are slowly wising up. if a person had god speak to them in a burning bush there are other posibilities to explain that these days.

    the notion of flight has been around as long as the bird and they've been flying since b4 the dinos.

    its so much easier to identify with the past than to the unknown future. the past exists in our daily lifes where as the future does not.

    im not saying i know any facts about the existance of god because i dont. but i do know that im not going to believe something just because some person wrote it in a book ages ago in a very different era. i will believe for different reasons.
    do u believe in allah? if yes or no please tell me why.
  9. stump PRO EVOLUTION

    lets put our side of chat as i have on the start of each post.

    paul, i should probably appologise if i seem mean. i respect your beliefs and enjoy chatting about them. im not fighting. just so you know.
  10. Brainwashing and FEAR: The Tools of the Church

    Welcome to the first edition of the Religion is Bullshit Glorious Newsletter!

    I used to spend a lot of time debating Fundies on a few online debate forums. Most of them are nice enough people but apparently impervious to reason, logic, rationality, common sense, Reality, etc., when it comes to their religious beliefs. You can show a Fundie the truth and facts over and over and over again and they still won't get it. I have had the experience of having a Fundie state something dogmatic, like the absurd idea that the Bible is inerrant, that was easily disprovable. I disproved their claim and any reasonable person would have learned and adjusted their views. Not Fundies! They just keep posting the same tired, easily disproved arguments over and over again in spite of the fact that they have been soundly refuted. They refuse to learn. Why?

    Brainwashing and FEAR. The Christian Church uses several known brainwashing techniques to gain and then keep converts. Here is an example: Ever been to a church service where the same song is sung over and over and over again? I have, and it is a common practice. What the vast majority of church members do not know is that this is a brainwashing technique. The repetition of the song breaks down mental barriers and puts people in an extremely suggestible state. The music plays a part as well. Deep bass tones played rhythmically and repeatedly will cause people to enter an altered state of consciousness - they go in and out of trance while the song is playing. Watch a Charismatic praise & worship service or pay attention next time you are in a church service. You will notice some folks staring blankly into space. They are in a hypnotic trance. Some preachers also use a speaking technique called "voice roll", I think, which also has a hypnotic effect. While in a relaxed, altered! state, most people's defenses (and critical thinking skills) are down and what they are taught at that time they will not necessarily think through for themselves. So, while the defenses are down, the brainwashing and indoctrination takes place.

    FEAR is another tactic that the Christian Church uses and, unfortunately, they use it well. Christians are taught that the Bible is the "word of God" and that they have the ONLY truth. Anything that disagrees with the Bible and/or the Church's interpretation of the Bible is a deception. For example, all other religions are a deception. Evolution is a deception. If it doesn't agree with the Bible, it is a demonic deception designed to keep us from believing the Bible and therefore being "saved". According to the Church, you MUST believe their way or you have displeased God and are going to Hell FOREVER. The Hell doctrine is nothing more than a heinously cruel fear tactic that has been used successfully for centuries. It should be obvious that the concepts of a Loving God and an eternal Hell are diametrically opposed ideas. With this kind of pressure and these kinds of fear tactics, is it any wonder that Fundies don't think for themselves?

    The best thing to do regarding your Fundie relatives and friends is to realize that, while they are well-meaning in their beliefs, they have been brainwashed. Brainwashed people cannot see the truth that is right before their eyes and they will deny facts that do not agree with their beliefs. Brainwashing causes a disconnect in the mind of the Believer between Reality and religious fantasy. Reality is filtered out in favor of the religious dogma/fantasy.

    Recovery from brainwashing and the fear tactics absolutely is possible! There are those like me who woke up on their own and came back to Reality and there are those who are helped back to Reality by those who care about them.

    It is very important to understand that Fundamentalist Christianity is a Destructive Cult, NOT a harmless and benign belief system. Any institution that employs brainwashing techniques and fear tactics CANNOT be considered to be a harmless and/or respectable institution.

  11. So, ignoring the man who appears to be obssessed with monkeys (eww), Tash, you have hit on the link between belief and experience. I think the young man WAS brave, cos if you're going to preach in the open air, that's one of the six questions you're going to get asked, and he seems to have been enthusiastic, or a bit under-done, at least!

    It is the fairest of the questions to ask how one can believe the Bible is true simply on the basis of the fact that it says it is. Many other books make similar claims, and in many cases faith supplants belief, even against evidence. The Warren Commission and subsequent inquiries all placed Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin of J.F.K. Problem is, no-one believes them, because the evidence simply doesn't support such a conclusion.

    So what statement might we look at to see if the Bible deserves to be trusted? Here's two possibilities.

    In Hebrews chapter 11 and verse 3 in the New Testament we read; Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Now I don't believe that we can make the Bible a science text book, any more than we can make a cookery book a chemistry text book (even though chemistry processes are involved). It is, however, interesting that nearly 2,000 years before the discovery of the atomic theory, Paul tells us that the things that we see are made up of things that we can't see.

    Now Paul was a religious leader by persuasion, and a tent-maker by profession, so this statement is well outside his areas of expertise.

    Second is the argument from experience. For 2,000 years now, people's lives have been being irrevocably changed by the same message that was preached in the streets of Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. People who have no hope in life and less in death, have found reason and purpose for living. Ruined lives have been rescued and redeemed. And because this message begins with the creation of man, it addresses all the needs of ALL men, irrespective of race, colour or gender.

    Jax, nice to be able to have an intelligent conversation with you, I won't respond immediately or his-nibs will be whingeing about me making two posts in a row :LOL:.
  12. There seem to be a lot of different reasons that people are Atheist. There are also a lot of different reasons why people are religious. The main reasons for my not being religious are listed below. The reasons why I think others should not be religious are also listed below.

    I was born into a family that had a strong belief system based on a mix of Christian values and the witches/pagans belief in the ability to perform magic through the use of spells. It's hard to explain how I felt growing up in a family full of people who had a strong belief in something that I did not. I wondered how they could believe in something that they couldn't see, touch or smell. I wondered why they wanted to believe and why I didn't want to believe. Then I started to read about science and also I read a bit on religion and began to see how things could be explained with science. Now I'm not a genius, I do not have an extremely high I.Q. But a lot of things are as simple as looking and comparing. My family being mostly witch/pagan, I began to read books about witches and pagan and magic. I wonder how many witches/pagans over look that part in almost every practical magic book that says, "The spell has been performed, now its up to you." Then it goes on to explain that the spell casters have to put forth some effort to get the spell into effect. Basically what this says to me is that they just needed a push that would help them to do it themselves. They believe so strongly that this "spell" is going to come into effect as long as they do what they are told, but instead they are actually making it happen themselves. The poor people are so involved that they don't even realize that they have been taken for a ride so that someone could make money off of them. I came to this realization with a lot of religions.

    It was especially hard when people that I knew and loved (or thought I loved because of blood) came to me and said that they had seen a "spirit" or had a spiritual encounter. I had for the longest time thought that I had seen and heard things also. It is called mass hysteria. One person claims that there is a "ghost" in your house, and suddenly everyone starts having weird sightings and hears things that are unexplainable. I think that because we as people give off a specific energy (documented with Auras) that everything in the world that is organic in nature gives off energy. Given a concentrated amount in one general area might cause some of the images that have been captured on film and sited as "ghosts" or "paranormal". This however is what I think personally. I don't know for sure of this and openly admit it, because I am no scholar. But just because someone shows me a picture of a "ghost" and a specialist says that it hasn't been doctored doesn't mean that it is a "ghost". Just like if someone shows me a picture and says it is "god" I would not believe them until I saw proof. The point to this is there are a lot of things that can currently not be explained, but that does not make it a "miracle of the almighty".

    Looking back over the years I realize that yes there are things that I wish I could have done differently. Since this is the only life that I have I am mad that there are really big mistakes that I have made. However having the knowledge that this is the only life that I have I cannot sit and worry and think all the time about the "what if". People everywhere are stricken with a delusion that an "almighty god" will make their lives better. When in fact they know that they are the people that have to work to make themselves and their lives better. How can people have beliefs that would suggest that there Is someone out there that cannot be seen or even proven to exist yet this person, god as it were, is going to make everything all better for them? Do they not see that when they pray that it is them and the people around them who are actually making those prayers come to fruition? And what really gets me is that a lot of these so-called good Christian people have the dirtiest mouths, the meanest threats, and also to go with that really bad delusions and what appears to be some pretty hefty mental illnesses. If this is what organized religion does to people I want nothing to do with it.

    Reading has been something that I have done a lot of. I read just to see sometimes what kind of science can be found within the publication. I see a lot of things also that are just impossible and people get sucked/suckered into believing the crap. Why, for instance, should a good Christian have to go pay for a book (the holy bible) that its knowledge is specifically supposed to be shared at no charge with other people? I have seen bibles that are upwards of 50-100 dollars. How ridiculous is that? It is because so called good Christians are money hungry hypocrites. Why would you NEED to give money to a collection plate in church? Is not their "god" so mighty and powerful that he can provide them with everything they should need? NO. That is why there are no gods. Or everyone would have everything they needed in life to survive. There would be no homeless people, there would be no one starving to death thousands at a time on a daily basis. If there were real gods, that were merciful and powerful, we would all be living comfortably, not to mention happily. Why would a god allow suffering, disease, pain, mental diseases like depression and schizophrenia? If there was a god they would not allow it. That is why there is no reason to believe. When I look at that word, BELIEVE, This is what I see - beLIEve.

    See I never believed that gods would help because I knew that if my friends and family were going to be helped it would be by doctors. I hear people all the time after a doctor has saved a patients life "Thank god so and so is alive." Why would you thank a god for something that was clearly done by a doctor?? I never saw a point in thanking a deity that obviously had no hand in helping.

    So basically its not a question of why I am an atheist, it should be obvious to anyone who has any common sense that its just not natural to be religious? we are not born with the knowledge of a deity, we are taught that knowledge, we learn it. If you were secluded from all religions and no one ever told you about them or about the possibility of them and you were a perfectly sane human being (I will not say normal as normal is a lie also) you would never know that there were such things as religion or gods.

    Looking at things from a scientific point of view all my life has made me more open-minded. I have noticed that people who view things from a religious standpoint are normally uptight and they are convinced that what they say is always right. Most of them have absolutely no consideration for others views and opinions what so ever. That is terribly sad. I see religion like I see drugs. People use religion to escape from reality. Then in the course of "using" religion, they become addicted and can no longer see the world for what it really is. Church and prayer are like a fix. If they go to church or at the very least pray, they think that things will be better. You can only make your life better by putting forth effort and not depending on others (including gods) to do things for you. I cannot stress this point enough. Your religion and your god have nothing to do with how good or bad your life is.

    Why would anyone want to live a life that is governed by a book that has no factual properties what so ever? I ask myself this every time I hear someone say "Live your life by the word of god and you shall have everlasting life." I just don't see how that can be relevant when that so called word of god is full of contradictions and inconsistencies. All I know is that my life has been less depressing and more fulfilling since I just quit thinking about religion and all the blah blah blah that goes with it. I have more confidence; better self esteem, more friends (because I am no longer afraid of who I make friends with) and an all around better outlook on life. I don't want to waste my life worrying about who is/isn't watching me. I don't want to worry about saying or doing things that would have me sent to "hell". As a result I am happier, stronger, more secure, and believe it or not I am also healthier (in my case it is mental health). So why make yourself sick and tired and unhappy with all this religion crap? Just say no.

    This is the opinion that I, Rebecca, have formulated over the years growing up on this planet. If you don't like my opinion I am not sorry for having it, but I AM sorry that you are probably one of the many sheep on this planet that have been fooled into believing in something that just isn't true.

  13. I can't say I believe in exactly what the bible says, i.e events, what people did etc. However, to me that's irrelevant. The idea of the Bible (to me at least) in Christianity is to tell people how to live their lives as good people. And that's what's important, a point that many people who detract from Christianity and the bible seem to miss.

    Though for me personally, I can figure it out for myself without having to read a bunch of stories by just applying some common sense and reason to my interactions with others and my own actions.
  14. Well, I can unequivocally state that Paul indeed has a wonderful sense of humour, chief amongst his humour is an ability to laugh at himself first.
    I find him to be a honest GOOD BLOKE, I've had the privilege of his and his families hospitality, very generously at a time when neither had a job.
    He is selfless, genuine and fair dinkum.

    He is NOT a bible basher, IMO bible bashers are those that force their beliefs down your throat, whether invited or not, at no time has he done that to me or anyone I know.

    I am not of any religion, never have, and doubt I ever will be. but I will never ridicule or belittle anyone else's belief. I respect their right to believe, as much as I expect people respect my right not to.

    Frankly Dazza, I find your reply totally out of step with what a moderator should display, you have vilified a poster because they do not hold the same belief as you. Bad form.

    Hornet is a good example of what "christian values" are supposed to be, sadly a lot of devotees of the larger christian churches don't seem to show those values. Christian or not, he does not deserve such vehemence from others.

    now, back to topic... sorry Paul, I can't speak with authority, as my knowledge of the bible is rudimentary, I just couldn't continue to study a book that is so "fantastic" and, honestly, unbelievable.

    I made a decision a long time ago that certain things I did read/heard/was told, by bible readers, I just could not believe, such as an "immaculate conception" an omnipotent single being that created everything. That being only created this one world? resurrection? water into wine? sounds a bit too, ummm, harry potter to me. I need to be shown, not believe from what I read or are told. There is just too many gaps, too much "magic". Just as there is too many gaps in the theory of evolution for it to be the total answer, and the "big bang" theory is, well.... surreal.

    To me it's all ways of trying to explain the inexplicable, by people who need to know or believe in the origins, and that there is more to us than a bare 78 (avg) years on this world. Me? well I really do not care about any possible afterlife, nor do I care, beyond idle curiosity, what has gone before.

    I care about the here and now, being treated, and treating others, with respect, dignity and kindness. I get fairly angry, and frustrated, when I see the way some people treat others, but I can't help that, all I can do is try to be a good person and hope I gain peoples respect for that.

    and so endeth the sermon :LOL:

    JJ the 1st, of the ironical church of agnostics

    remember the comfy chair!!!! :inquisition:
  15. JJ, fair questions. But you see, if you start out with the a-priori position of an omnipotent God, then miracles aren't a problem, since He is at liberty to circumvent the laws of nature which He Himself created. The creator is always the master of his creation.

    But surely, unless a group of people who had very little scholastic ability got together for a very long time, like 1,500 years, and compared notes rigorously for all that time, it would be impossible to make up and pepetuate the thousands of stories that make up the Bible, all, almost without exception, occuring before hundreds or more witnesses in the clear light of day?
  16. it is the fighting that ensues due to fanatical and devoted belief that disappoints me whether it be from a perspective of religion or science.

    as humans (or monkeys as dazza has shown), by default, we all seem to know that we are right all the time.

    listen, educate yourself and then judge.
  17. The hole's getting deeper :LOL:....

    See, joel, that argument is the one that's always raised, but it's kinda without substance if you really look at it.

    The violence and genocide in Africa, for example? Is religion causing that? Possibly, old tribal animisms, but certianly not Christianity. Africa had over a hundred years of tribal peace in most parts before more enlightened people kicked out the Christian missionaries and opted for the old ways. Now the hospitals and schools and institutions that were built in the name of Jesus Christ no longer function or even exist, and Africa is back where it was in the 1700s.....
  18. Where in his posts is he "ramming vile down our throats"? It seems that you are the one ramming vile down everyone else's throats, whereas hornet is calmly and eloquently expressing his opinion of his own personal beliefs.
  19. Dazza, why not put all those posts into one?, it would achieve the same purpose, and maybe even show you have some intelligence.

    Paul, I cannot perceive a single omnipotent being, so I am predisposed to not believing the rest.

    Also, the argument (as I see it) that so many people also believe, and have done for a mere 1,500--2,000 years therefore makes it true, just doesn't wash.

    As I see it, if you get all the various forms of christianty together (RC, CoE, Lutheran, 7th day adventists, mormon's etc etc), added that to the other religion that (to me) believes in basically the same thing (Islamists of all flavours), then compare against the numbers of these believers against the timeline and numbers of the combined NON believers of the christian/muslim faiths (ie agnostics, budhist, hindu, brahamism, shinto, ancestor worship, etc etc) The NON believers are far far greater.

    So by that simplisitic reckoning, does it mean that because everyone who does not believe in a christian god outnumbers those that do, and have NOT believed for far far longer than christians have, so therefore they're right, and you're wrong?

    I don't think so

    I would like to add a couple of points...

    zealots of ANY belief are @holes, all christians are not tainted with the poison that caused such atrocities as the crusades, inquistion etc. Just as all Muslims are not radicals. Funny, you never hear of a rampant holy war of Buddhists tho :-k that would be force to reckon with, an army of half nekid fat blokes :shock:

    Lately, some medical scientists have found that those who do deeply believe in spirituality of any sort have a much larger area of brain (somewhere in the pre-frontal lobe) than those that don't. They haven't worked out if this area PRE-DISPOSES the owner to belief, or is a result of their belief, but they do know that there is a difference. Interesting to see what happens there, is religion a result of genetics? Or one of the drivers of genetic diversity, and possibly a connector between Darwins Theory and his faith???

    all interesting, but futile, cos in the wash up, it really doesn't matter (to me)