Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

Things that make you go hmmm ...

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' at netrider.net.au started by Nightowl, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. Was out riding the hills the other day, tipped in for a corner and came across a tangle of cars.

    Just thought I’d post this up for learners-new riders, now that the weather’s warm and the twisties are a popular spot , and that this does happen ... can happen anywhere.

    Was traveling back along the Spur behind a car tapping out SOS with it’s brakes – tap, tap, tap on the straight, same before a corner, middle of the corner, and just after exiting a corner.



    I’d decided to focus on throttle control while behind them, no brakes, pace till an opportunity presented to pass them.

    As it disappeared behind a corner its brake light flashed on (again) before disappearing from view.

    Tipped in for the corner, partially around it and saw a tangle of cars stopped further ahead, not visible from point of tipping bike in. Stand up bike, and brake.

    Have compiled a rough pic of the tangle below:

    - Green car stopped – for no apparent reason
    - Yellow car protruding trying to pull out behind and around green car into oncoming traffic
    - Blue car stopped, angled into oncoming lane.
    - Silver car wide in lane, stopped by protruding yellow car.

    As I drew to a stop, with a view to overtaking tangle in right lane, blue car took advantage of gap in oncoming traffic and swerved out to do just that, so I followed it around.

    A few tips I thought I’d mention:

    - Don’t follow cars too closely into corners. They’re notorious for braking mid corner. Give yourself space.
    - Stand bike up first before applying front brake. Do you yet know what your first reaction would be in similar situation? Have you had to brake in a corner yet? Have you tried it yet (somewhere safe)?
    - Expect and account for last minute moves – don’t assume that because the cars have stopped they’ll stay stopped and in position till you’re past them. They’ll probably be looking for a way out too.

    Could be any number of things that block a lane/road round a corner.
    How do you think you’d fare with the skills you’ve acquired to date in this type of situation?
    More tips?

    .
     

    Attached Files:

    • bs1.
      bs1.jpg
      File size:
      39.3 KB
      Views:
      25
     Top
    • Like Like x 22
  2. Really good points, definitely something to think about, thanks Nightowl :)
     
     Top
  3. would be a great 'add on' for noobs thread Nightowl, very good points raised especially when encoutering the 'oh shit' factor!!
     
     Top
  4. Good post Nightowl. I often wonder about trees on the road - haven't had the misfortune yet to come across any suddenly (*touch wood*), but sure it'll be interesting if/when it happens.
     
     Top
  5. #5 jag131990, Jan 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2015
    You wouldn't want to be touching wood just now when your aim is to avoid trees.

    Bazinga!

    Very good post Nightowl, cheers
     
     Top
  6. the only legal passing place on black spur (the broken lines) often has a copper with laser hiding in the bush up above. so be very careful if you over take there.
     
     Top
  7. I had one of these moments about 6 months ago in a built-up area on Burns Road Wahroongah. Like you, I was following a line of cages at a reasonable distance into a downhill, LH blind corner. As I rounded the corner, the cars were stopped dead and to make matters worse, there was loose gravel in my lane. Ended up standing the bike up and used a (very convenient) wide painted island to come to a halt safely. Suffice to say I have taken the lesson to heart and have sharpened the spidie senses.
     
     Top
  8. Interestingly their Hideout is now very visible, when coming from the marysville end you will see a large GAP in the trees.

    ;)

    On topic, yes, you need to practice the Stand up and brake tactic and the balancing act of braking while leaned over and progressively MORE brakes with Less lean.

    :)

    the trick is then choosing the right tactic at the right time.

    Remember traction is finite, and if you have $1 worth , while spending 80cents on cornering traction, dont spend 25 cents on braking.

    Break the budget and .... well.....
     
     Top
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Timely and excellent post Nightowl.

    Someone on here once said "Never ride faster than you angel can fly"

    Don't outride your experience, folks.
     
     Top
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Yep part of my last lesson before loosing my Looser plate(L) was mid corner braking. and they tought excatly what you tell us. stand it up, look at the horizon then brake.
     
     Top
  11. :-k hmmm...
     
     Top
  12. .. i did not know that 'a tangle' was the collective noun for a group of cagers.
     
     Top
  13. :LOL:

    Kind of tango around them so figured 'tangled' a fit ... but am open to suggestions on what else to call them.
     
     Top
  14. :LOL:


    Thanks for the heads up Twistngo & StuH, and the additional tips.

    Most (if not all, afaik) cover braking mid-corner in learner to licence courses, but don't normally give riders the opportunity to actually practice it out on course.

    Did you get the opportunity to do so in yours Aussieak?
     
     Top
  15. no that was not done but I have to be honest I am sure I 2 finger cover my brake these days in the twistie bits
     
     Top
  16. Nightowl has raised several valid points here.

    I will speak very generally, but if good fortune smiles and you have the space, standing the bike up and hitting the brakes as Nightowl was able to, is the best, and safest way to stop.
    Nightowl was riding 'smart', and allowed herself the space needed, at the speed she was riding at, to be able to stop safely.

    The braking scenario I'd like to focus on is - unexpectly having to stop, or reduce speed, very quickly! And we'll use the left hand turn, since that is typically the direction with less visibility ahead, giving you less time to react.
    For the sake of the argument we will assume that for some reason, you cannot use the oncoming lane for extra space. (something you should be fully prepared to do, if at all possible)
    Clearly, even if a collision is imminent, you should be doing what you need to do, all the way to impact! You never give up until you
    hit. The slower the speed the less nasty are the injuries...even 5k's less can be a major difference in injuries.

    Anyway...the subject is about being able to brake while still turning. The ability to do this, is a very important tool to have in the toolbox. I'm not saying that noobs should go out and start braking while turning. One needs to have their cornering skills sorted, FIRST.
    But once you are at that stage, you should start to introduce braking, say mid corner, to get a feel for how the bike behaves at various braking strengths.

    This activity, is fundamentally grip management, and balancing the bikes grip between the two (cornering grip vs braking grip), and the physical spatial limitations you are left with.
    At some advanced point in a riders career, grip management will become one of THE primary judgement skills, and used constantly while riding.

    You are using it now, but it happens in the background at lower levels. Eventually you have to bring it out and make it a conscious process that you actively engage in, since your increased speed from higher levels of commitment, will require your focussed management of the everchanging grip.
    Throw in an emergency mid corner, and you can see the importance of having reliable judgement that you can put your faith in and rely upon ;-)

    Here's an example of a fairly simple case of having to brake hard while turning...me doing $1.00 through the previous corner, car doing 20-30k.

    http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x290/jgm-57/Videos/?action=view&current=JohnSpurboxes-4.mp4

    [Edit - rephrase]The hard braking takes place in the very instant the video starts, so you may have to replay it several times to get your eye in.
    .
     
     Top
    • Like Like x 5
  17. Thanks Raven. I noticed that even tho you were breaking on a lean, there was still SOME element of you standing the bike up a little and riding the outside line on the corner.

    It's a pitty the footage didn't start a few seconds earlier. Did you try and wipe off as much speed as possible in that (very small) straight between the corners before you tipped in again? Did you get off the brake a little on tip in, then re-apply again? What was your thought pattern here? (sorry for bombarding you mate. this is a great example for us all).
     
     Top
  18. Hi minglis. :)

    I came around the preceding corner at $1.00, saw the car and eased off, figuring he would be travelling at the typical speed cars do at that spot. As I rushed towards it I realised he was dawdling, and by this time I was indeed in the transition section between corners.

    There were no oncoming cars, but at my speed, passing the car around the outside would have meant an extreme lean angle and I had doubts that my tyres would have had the grip to do it successfully, since I was running a speed close to 100%cornering grip, already. (remember I would have had to swing out around the car first, before I could get into the lh corner ahead)

    Instead I hit the front brake (only) hard, washed off a lot of speed whilst upright, but by then I was entering the left turn. So I ran the turn, by pushing very hard on the clip ons as I was still braking heavily, then as the lean angle increased, adjusted my braking off a bit to allow for more cornering grip.
    I then let the bike run wider (it wanted to stand up due to my heavy braking anyway) to give me more time under brakes, but still enough lean angle to remain on my side of the road, but with the option of running wide outside of the car until i could drop back in behind it again, I needed.

    Yeas always safe enough, but was balancing brakes vs cornering at close to the limits for a second, but even if an oncoming car was there, I was fully prepared
    to use the space between them as extra braking time.
    A lot was going on at the time, but I think that's a close recall of my thinking at the time mate.

    Bear in mind that I am reasonably proficient at braking whilst turning, having practised it purposefully, and the skill gets used regularly in trail braking the front into some corners, anyway. (it comes with the territory when running at speed)

    Hope I've written that clearly enough. It is a case of not having the room to stand it up and then brake, without going bush out of the preceeding right hander. I was commited to completing that rh corner before braking, in this specific case.
     
     Top
  19. did seem an on off brake situation and great learning tool Raven, still freak out when I see that truck on your side of the road and how you make it look so easy to stand up and lean off again..
     
     Top
  20. Thanks Raven, really appreciate the walk thru mate. Excellent.
     
     Top