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The forsaken church

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by smee, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. #1 smee, Dec 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Eastern orthodoxy was and still is in many hearts and minds one of the original Christian churches and has, in many ways shaped Western civilisation and the way of life we have come to lead today.
    Many of you have no idea about its roots and its importance and how the Turkish government, which wants passage into the EU, still will not allow religious freedom and human rights. Let me say that this is not bashing the Turkish people whom I have the greatest respect for (my ancestors lived in Anatolia for over 2000 years right up until 1923) The Turkish people are wonderful people who imho can join the EU in a heartbeat but the governments of the day past and present, are another thing.
    The 2 youtube videos are an interview Sixty minutes of America showed 20 december this year, with Archbishop Bartholomew, the head of the Orthodox church which represents 300+ million people, yet in the country of his roots, the government seems intent on making the original church of Christendom irrelevant, a country which lays claim to Ancient lands not of their origin (the Turks came into these lands 500-600 years ago) Here's a little education about a subject very close to my heart (not so much the religious aspect of it but its cultural/ethical/ancestral nature)
    Part 1
    [media=youtube]WHiqidzK[/media]
    Part 2
    [media=youtube]HiFfPkUwm5Y[/media]


     
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  2. I was also under the impression that Turkey had to forsake the Death penalty before being accepted into the EU, though I haven't kept up to date with it at all.
     
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  3. I looked at the title and thought it said "foreskin church "

    anyway ignore that and no smart arse comments about it

    Is proud to be Russian orthodox
     
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  4. 7th January smee

    Serbs must be one of the hardcore orthodox nations on this earth, saint days, christmas is 7th january, new year 14th january and so on..
     
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  5. Some notes on the video:

    Turkey is secular. Despite a 99% Muslim majority, the leaders do not mix religion and politics. The military stage a coupe if they believe that the government is somehow influenced by religion. This has happened in the past a few times, even as recently as the mid-late 90s. When I was in Istanbul in September it was very rare to see someone wearing a head scarf, let alone the full regalia. This was even during Ramadan. Maybe it's different in the rest of Turkey.

    If they cared much about religion, they didn't show it. However, they seem to have a "religious-type" love of Ataturk. His portrait is everywhere, in every room, car windows, proudly displayed. Though it's an offence to cheapen his image or to attack his character.
    Some 15 year old Greek kids decided to make a defamatory attack on Ataturk and put it on Youtube. At first the Turkish government succeeded in removing it, but it kept appearing online so they blocked the country from Youtube altogether.

    My mate is a Catholic who has been in Istanbul for the past year, working as a teacher (very popular for foreigners). At Christmas 2008 he went to the Christian church, South of Taksim for mass. He said that there wasn't a problem, with the Church packed with mainly Filipinos and West Africans.

    They all want to join the EU, even the coins are shaped to match the EU currency. However, my mate believes that both France and Germany will continue to veto their inclusion due to the large amounts of Turkish ex-pats already in those countries. Apparently they haven't integrated well to the communities, so there are fears that there would be a major influx of Turkish citizens who will choose to live permanently with their relatives within France and Germany. I don't follow it from here, but that's what he's told me.
     
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  6. Turkey has been in charge of Constantinople for only 500 years or so ,yet the church has been there for over 1800 years, that is the moral dilemma.
     
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  7. Worse yet, they would have to forsake their bickering with Greece...
     
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  8. Isn't it interesting, whenever religion comes up there's always someone bleating about how religions stop people thinking, but whenever powerful people want to control other people, their first attack and supression is on the church and the press......
     
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  9. Actually Greece is one of the few EU countries that supports Turkey's inclusion into the EU. The two countries relations have never been better since "earthquake diplomacy" helped them get their relations back on track.
     
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  10. Don't know about that in this country..... Conroy is doing a great job of using religion to stunt his thinking, while trying to use it as one justification to control the people of this country.

    He seems to be doing a great job of listening to the fanatics in government, instead of realising what the majority of people want.

    Stem Cell research is another place where religion has been used as a justification for control in this country - many other examples.

    I also never see suppression of the press, plenty of manipulation by people with money (including the church) but that is all. Mainstream press report distorted crap and gossip a lot of the time, i don't read what they publish for this exact reason. As for suppression of the church, i guess that depends on what 'church' you belong to? It always seems to be the most unpopular religion in the country (i.e minority) copping the negative attention - in Australia's case i would figure that one to be Islam not Christianity or one of its offspring.

    Maybe if you were a Christian in a predominantly Islamic country practising Sharia you would feel some suppression - but not in this country.
     
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  11. I wasn't talking about this country :roll: Did you read the OP??
     
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  12. Religion.

    Mine is Formula 1 :)
     
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  13. Yep The discussion is based on a milleniums old institution that more or less kickstarted our set of values and beliefs throughout the western world and its neglect by the same western countries that have benefited from its beginnings.
    I bet people were not aware of the letter by Mohammed to allow religious freedoms for the church yet the Ottomans converted Agia Sophia into a mosque against the core beliefs of their religion.
    I can go on ad nausuem about how this rich history and its importance to how our current world has developed is neglected by historians and the one link to the past is systematically being wiped out by politicians with an agenda.
    It has nothing to do with religion but more to do with allowing time honoured traditions that affect 300 milion to continue and not to be oppressed.
     
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  14. I think it's more accurate to say that the Turkish government and military have been more anti-religious power than anti-Orthodox. There have been crack-downs on all forms of creed-based political activity in the last century. Ask the Sufi orders how they were treated, along with Alawi (ok, understandable...), Bahai etc. A number of fundamentalist medressas have been recently shut down by the government. That is not to say that repression is entirely justified, but it's motivation in Turkey is not coming from Islam, it's from the Seculars. And along with the repression of religious power, it has also delivered a relatively modern, democracy-based society.

    I don't for a minute claim the the forced repatriation of millions was a good thing, but in the 21st century the reality is that less than a 1% of the population of Asia Minor is Christian. It's hard see how relevant their Church is there, except in a historical sense. It's more a sad chapter of history than a burning contemporary issue IMHO.

    edit. In terms of showing respect, my impression was that Turkey and it's citizens (in recent years), have generally done a reasonable job of honouring the past (Church of Agios Nikolas a case in point). They won't allow religion to step into the modern political domain, however.
     
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  15. Your comment sounded general to me - sorry if it was misconstrued.
     
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  16. It's not just the forced repatriation it was the forced conversions of millions of christians over the last 500 years.
    How many Turks would have Greek blood in their veins? you'd be surprised.
    There are still areas around Trebizon where the populace in all intents and purposes are Turkish in religion and upbringing yet secretly are also practising Christians. (Crypto Christians there are reports there are up to 500000 crypto Christians but those figures are shaky as it is difficult to ascertain)
    and this article about the forced expulsion of the indigenous people out of Asia Minor. (My family included)
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/books/review/Cooper.t.html
     
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  17. ye? are the rooms still 50 bux a night? :)
     
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  18. Formula 1 is that the hotel in Dandenong?
     
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  19. 'Tis still an awesome sight! At least when the Ottomans converted it to a mosque, they didn't destroy the mosaics and instead covered them with plaster. It's kind of strange to see Jesus and Mary displayed prominently on the walls...
     
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  20. One of my wishes is to go and see this magnificent cathedral, preferably restored to its original beauty.
     
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