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Stupid P-plater car restrictions

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by Marlon, Dec 2, 2006.

  1. Sorry, had to start a thread on this.

    NSW is proposing more P-plater driver restrictions. http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/nsw-left-behind-on-pplate-reforms/2006/12/01/1164777794973.html

    So they are proposing more P plater restrictions. Curfews, restrictions on passengers. I can't imagine how different my life would have been driving a car when i first got my P's. No more gigs, no more going out into town. No more 'designated driver' system. Would have got absolutely smashed and just walked the streets until sober.

    Anyway, the thing that really pissed me off is that in Queensland, they are proposing you need your licence for one year before getting your motorbike licence. Jesus H. Christ. I would have thought it should be the other way around, if anything.

    My problem with all of this - a friend of mine was killed in an accident several years ago. He was driving a datsun (Not restricted) at 10.30PM (Not covered by proposed restrictions) with one friend over 21 (Not covered by proposed restrictions) and going under 60k's per hour. (Not illegal) He took a corner too quickly.

    He was a top guy, but did some stupid and irresponsible things. Stick him in a car and he'll drive it stupid and irresponsibly. You can't legislate against that style of stupidity.

    Rant off.[/url]
  2. I'll just wish they can put some sort of restrictions in Victoria for P platers.. I don't know.. ban them from driving V6, V8, turbo cars or whatever high power cars.. was watching ACA the other night.. a few teenagers got killed because the teenage driver failed to control his V8 and resulted all the teenagers in the car died in the accident... very sad..
  3. Is already the case. They are resricted by power to weight ratios. It's simply not enforced. :wink:

    I don't see why we don't just ban cars. fcuking stupid things if you ask me. :cool: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
  4. Spot on.

    Although I agree with power restrictions...

    All the proposed "improvements" are merely extensions of existing programs that do not work.
    The RTA suggests this because they don't want to admit that, OK, there is a way better way to teach people to drive than the system we've been charging millions of dollars for over the last 50 years.

    If a kid is going to be taught to drive by their father who doesn't indicate OR check his blind-spots before merging, I don't want that kid learning from him for 50 hours, 80 hours, or 120 hours.
    What's the point?

    Boys will be boys.
    Boys will speed.
    No-one sets out to kill their mates - speed might contribute, alcohol might contribute, excess weight or a distraction in the car may contribute: but the bottom line is the car behaves in an unexpected manner and the driver lacks the skills to correct it.

    You don't know the limits of a vehicle/traction until you test them - and under our current training system almost EVERY kid hits the road without knowing these limits.

    --[open comment to the parents of the kid who crashed and killed his mates in Byron Bay - sorry for the tragedy etc. but the situation does NOT make you an expert on driver training for the state of NSW. STFU and buy your kid an advanced driving course for Xmas]--
  5. I totally agree with any proposed changes. Protecting us from any sort of danger whatsoever is a much surer way of making us safe compared to stupid "education" or "training". It's in the public's interest to make sure we stay home, stay still, and stay alive.
  6. I don't exactly have any confidence in any laws that ban these kids from driving V6's, V8's or turbos. Any impact with a stationary object from a speed greater than 100kmh (for example) is going to leave a hell of a mark. Now, a 4 cylinder suzuki swift can break that limit and so can a commodore, falcon or chryslar voyager. But in the event of a crash at those speeds i think the swift would be the biggest death trap. Not only because of it's levels of impact protection but also because it has the least capable handling/braking.
    If kids are going to be kids they are going to look for thrills, and if that means that they drive recklessly it doesn't matter what they are driving.

    That is exactly right. Adolescence is the time when these people who are now rapidly growing begin learning what they and their bodies are capable of. They will do this by performing stupid pranks such as jumping from a roof, fighting, sport, any other seemingly stupid yet physical behaviour. Sort of like a kitten stalking a grasshopper. Then they get their license after receiving no tuition and therefore not knowing the tires limits of adhesion or how the change of pitch and yaw of the vehicle can upset the vehicles stability on a rapid change of direction (animal on a blind corner=panic and swerve). These kids aren't even taught to look for changes in the road surface and to be aware of the grip levels available or the vehicles competence on a bumpy surface. Unfortunately the consequences of exceeding your limits at more than 100km/h are more serious than exceeding the limit at which you can land a backflip off a table.
    Oh and another thing with the experience argument. ..When all these old armchair experts claim that the P-Platers don't have the experience that they do i want to ask them "how the hell did you get your experience? Either you were reckless too when you were younger and learnt your limits then, or you passed some mystery threshold where you were endowed with infinite driving skill, or you were taught to drive properly by accredited instructors. Which one do you recommend ?".
    I'm sick of typing so i'll leave you with something short.
    : You can't legislate against stupidity.
    : you can't legislate against inexperience however, you can prevent inexperience by providing learners the experience in the form of proper instruction.
    : A small car can crash just as hard as a large car, only there is less of it to absorb the energy that is released.
    : Limiting passangers = bye bye designated driver. More cars on the road with inexperienced drivers. The new headlines become P-Plate drink driver, P-plater caught without plates.

    Couldn't agree more.
  7. That's it, right there, nuff said.....
  8. I can absolutely see where some of the new laws are coming from.
    Firstly, less people in teh car means less people dead when they hit something. Secondly, less peer presure. Thirdly, cars handle very differently fully loaded, and this WILL catch an inexperienced driver out.
    The fact is, when I was young, we did crash, but I don't remember near as many P platers being killed.
    So, those complaining about the P plate laws can look at themselves and their peers for creating a situation through irresponsible driving, where the new legislation has to be passed. I am not saying every P plater drives like a tool, but it's a case of teh monotiry ruining it for teh majority (just like motorcycles).
    Yes, driver training should be better, but then everyone will whinge about spending $5k to get a licence (compulsory training should be done at an accredited organisation with a proper syllabus).
    I wish I had a dollar for every time a P plater has gone flying past me, doing something dangerous.
    What I am saying is, drive less like morons on your P's, and the laws wil be repealed.

    Regards, Andrew.
  9. Don't presume too much about small cars. GT production class racing in Australia proved that a Swift GTi was quite capable of out cornering and braking even supposed "performance" Aussie V8s. Sure their crash protection wasn't all that great but that was common for early 90s cars. The Series I VR Holden for example is a deathtrap due to dodgy seatbelts and the AU Falcon had inadequate roof pillar strength to protect the occupants in a rollover. Many small cars on the market now actually rate extremely well for impact protection, often better than many larger cars. And it's not just the expensive European stuff either, most cars from Japan are now quite good and even some of the cheaper Korean models are rating reasonably well (certainly better than an old Aussie sedan). The biggest problem in NSW is that instead of introducing a sensible power/weight restriction they simply went for the "all turbos are bad" approach - which bans p-platers from some of the safest cars on Earth (ie Volvo, Mercedes-Benz, Saab etc which use only low-boost turbos).
  10. Which means any petrolhead P-plater who's handy with a spanner could build themselves a Lotus 7 replica and flog anything on the road.

    In Austria (I think it's Austria) the government subsidises an advanced driver training course for all learner drivers. They learn emergency braking and evasion, go on a skid pan to learn how to control a loss of traction. It cost a lot initially but it had an immediate impact on the road toll and now that they've been doing it for years it's cheaper (economies of scale at work: if everybody has to do it, then the price will drop) plus it's reduced costs in there's less accidents.
  11. original post said

    send a bloody email to the minister! while your at it point out that the larger the vehicle, the more dangerous it is to other road users.

    guys, a P plate driver ripped my leg off and caused many other injuries. why? because he didnt want to wait 2 seconds. he knew i was there and took a risk on my life.

    there are young idiots who spoil it for the rest of us. i am pissed off by the amount of complaining kids are doing. they think that their freedom to drive a car is more important than another persons freedom to walk or live.

    driving has to be made a privilege, not a right. no one has the right to take a risk on anther persons life. all that is about to change.
  12. We never had "P" plates so that was a good thing but had our P's for 12 months. I drove a 1981 Datsun 200B s/wagon like a tool and I lost it plenty of times. Not at high speed and certainly not with other cars around (local cop would have kicked my arse and then told my old man!) also we were pretty carefull where we did it cause we didn't have a lot of cash to fix it if we stuffed up. Living in the country was probably a benefit because we got to muck around on many different surfaces and had all bee driving for years before getting out licence.

    I agree with the late night thing. If you get your licence at 17 and have "P"s for 1 year then you would be 18. No need for a designated driver before that as you arn't allowed to drink anyway.

    I also agree with the mates in car thing. Peer pressure is a powerful force and has been enough to convince many a 17 y/o that he is in fact Brocky (and we know how that worked out). Impressing girls is also a consideration. Come on thats hard when you drive a Datsun! :shock:

    I also agree with the power to weight restriction. My old datsun got me into trouble a lot slower than if I have a 327 HQ Ute and was prob a lot easier to control too. Give a child the power and they will use it. Restraint isn't a big thing when you are 17 y/o and bulletproof.

    Anyhoo just my 2c
  13. A friend of mine grew up in the country, said he did a lot more high-speed stuff in his GF's Mazda, just 'cause his HQ Commodore with the V8 in it spent most of it's time off the road after rooting diffs at carpark burnout comps :LOL:

    Jax, I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you - but the issue is with kids that simply lack the skills to stay alive/in one piece on the road.

    What happened to you was the result of criminal negligence, and I don't think that guy needs an advanced driving course, or extra learning time, or a slower car.

    -He needs 8-10 in Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Arse prison.
  14. I'm not going to comment on politics here, it seems enough has been said on that, and I'll probably only repeat what Ktulu said, but I wanted to raise a point...

    In NSW at least, the P plate scheme has been changed from 1 year on P's to 3 years on p's. This means that there are now conceivably 3x as many P platers on our roads than there were say 5 years ago. So doesn't it make sense that with a tripling of the population of P platers there should be an accompanying rise in the number of P plate deaths on our roads??? Just something to mull over...
  15. There is considerable evidence that peer pressure and ego feeding are the biggest single killers of inexperienced drivers and their passengers. I am 100% in favor of passenger restrictions. I trust my 17yo daughter to be sensible when she is alone, but I know damn well that most of her friends are immature and irresponsible, and those traits are really really contagious.
  16. I gotta be honest, i think curfews etc are a good idea. They have the same system in New Zealand.

    I know it will be an inconvenience but people will learn to live with it. If it gives people that extra bit of time to calm down and get over the "yay i got my license" mentality then thats got to be a good thing.

    People do stupid things all the time, but they def seem to do it more at night. So a nighttime curfew makes sense to me.
  17. Yep.

    When men get together they become boys.

    (obviously that has no relevance to Incitatus's daughter, but it's a nice quote nonetheless).
  18. Indeed. It's an inconvenience to those subject to the rules, not those implementing them or approving of them. I'm assuming you'd not be affected at all by the laws? Personally I think rather than ideas like this - just test people properly before letting them drive. Right now anyone can have a licence without knowing the first thing about driving. Advanced driver courses, defensive driving courses, proper education all need to take place before letting someone loose on the roads.

    Eleven people died on the weekend on Victorian roads. They weren't all young drivers. A couple of weeks ago a young driver caused an accident that killed himself and a couple of friends (in Sydney) he wasn't speeding or being stupid, just made a simple mistake anyone could make.

    While it's true plenty of under 25 drivers cause accidents doing the wrong thing, there are plenty of people over 25 making the exact same mistakes. Instead of focussing attention on young drivers, we should focus attention on bad drivers. Instead of simply punishing them, we should do something to reduce the amount of them. For starters, making sure people can drive before giving them a licence would be nice.

    Stopping people from driving at night, with friends or in more powerful cars is a wank solution to an actual problem. It makes old people happy without really helping. Similar to the hoon laws I'd suggest. It's kind of like promising pensioners before election time that drug dealers are going to be severely punished with long sentences.

    As for the person who said power/weight laws aren't enforced in Victoria - that's 100% UNTRUE. Unless you or many people you know drive a high powered vehicle on their P-plates (125kw/tonne or 3.5L/tonne) without being constantly fined/losing points, then I will not take your word for it. Even then you're an odd one out. Police, in their endeavour to pull over as many P-platers as possible, also try to give them as many fines as possible - including those for driving a high powered vehicle. Insurance companies also avoid paying claims to P-plate drivers in high powered cars. Saying "they're just not enforced" shows you say things without knowing anything. Just because people break the law, doesn't mean the law isn't enforced. P-plate power restriction laws are enforced more heavily than motorbike 250cc laws. The thing is, power to weight laws don't stop accidents. While any driver in a V8 twin turbo monster is going to have a bit of trouble, any driver can have trouble in wet weather, going down hill, at dusk, or in other unpredictable conditions in a low powered vehicle (whether that driver is 18 or 48).

    I basically just think that if they didn't hand licences out like birthday cards for people turning 18, we'd be a lot safer.
  19. i see sooooo many d-platers on the road.
    for those not exposed to this, it is an overturned P-plate.....

    clearly driver education is not good enough as the standard displayed on the roads is getting WORSE.
    bring on more restrictions
  20. With all the hype and pictures of P-plater accidents something has struck as a bit iffy. It got me thinking. Why is it that in almost every P-plate accident they are able to show a prominent P-plate on the car. How many P plated cars do you see with a prominent, easy-to-see plate. Hardly any. What's the deal? I doubt it is that those that are abiding by the law and clearly displaying their plate IAW the law are more likely to crash because of it.

    Case in point with the one in NSW on George street in the city. There were no facts whatsoever available about what happened apart from the results. Nothing reported to indicate the P-plater was at fault. Yet it was 2nd story news after the Labour leadership in Sydney all day. Just because the P plater hit and killed a pedestrian does not mean he was at fault. Pedestrians in Sydney are appalling at not looking and cutting out in front of cars. Then they said he was involved another minor accident just before the fatal one...OK so was he at fault or did someone hit him? Oh, and apparently the Police are checking his Blood Alcohol level....They always do after any sort of accident. The whole story was fabricated with no evidence to make it a dangerous P-plater story. He may end up being over the limit and caused the whole thing - then do him with everything the law has. But until that has been established it is wrong to highlight anything about it being a P-plater. The anti-P plate hype is out of control and I worry that it is going to get in the way of real reform.