Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

speed was a factor

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by simon varley, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. Of course it was! As long as we permit inexperienced kids to drive cars that are capable of reaching double the speed limit they will be tempted to do so. As parents we protect our children while they are growing up by locking the medicines away and hiding the matches, so why is it that as soon as they are old enough to have a driving license we think it's okay for them to be out in a 125kW/tonne missile.

    I'm not normally in favour of government intervention and believe as adults we should normally be allowed to make our own mistakes, but hasn't this gone far enough? As learner riders we are limited to what we can ride so shouldn't there be more limits on what a p-plate driver can drive?

    thoughts?


     
     Top
  2. agree but how do you limit the cars further without extreme cost.

    Remember that even in a corolla a person can go quick enough to do damage.
     
     Top
  3. How does it help?
    Let us look at the last Wowser fuel in Victoria.
    A Kid who had his probationary licence suspended was drunk (Should have been 0.00 and was well over 0.05) and was fishtailing down a road in a built up area.
    So he was flouting multiple laws at the time, how much attention would he pay to yet an other one?
    You can step the back out in any RWD 1.8 litre 4 if you are intent on being a bit of a larrikin.
    I used to get my Vitara sideways on occasion, and they aren’t really known for performance.
    A Toyota Corolla can top over 160kph, so driving a Commodore is of limited relevance.
    Basically unless you get the engine size down to that of a Mazda 121 someone can play up.
    Limiting the sensible people will not stop those who want to be dicks from binning cars.
     
     Top
  4. Limiting what new drivers can drive will do nothing but piss them off and make them break the law to drive what they want. Like P-platers not being allowed to have turbo, but a lot of the P-platers I know are driving turbo'd skylines anyway.

    You can crash just as well in a Daihatsu as you can in a 6-cyl Commonwhore. Unless you want to put a speed limiter on every car on the road so it can't go past, say, 20 K's. Ha!
     
     Top
  5. When you talk about getting to double the speed limit, every car can pretty much do that in most speed zones. Everyone should be able to in a 50 zone for example.
    If someone is going to be a tool in a car they will be.
    You don't even need much power, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had maccas trays under the back wheels of a FWD to slide the back.
     
     Top
  6. There was a fatal just north of Eden recently, driver was killed - young gal (who had just finished school and wanted to be a cop), three passengers seriously injured (one lost both legs).

    Hyundai Excel. (And yes - speed was blamed)

    You don't need a powerful car to be dangerous. Better driver education and positive peer pressure is the key.

    Driver education comes down to money though, I 'spose...
     
     Top
  7. the only other direct experience I have is England. There the market forces inexperienced drivers into low powered vehicles as they simply cannot afford the insurance on anything remotely powerful. As they gain experience (as denoted by building up a NC8) they can progressively afford to insure more powerful cars. Kids still crash, but not even remotely with the frequency and severity I see here.
     
     Top
  8. we all live with low powered motorcycles as we gain experience, why are you so anti about the same for cars?
     
     Top
  9. I'm sure that in the past L and P platers wiped themselves off in (wheezy underpowered asthmatic) Datsun 120y's.

    What's your point, what references are your referring to and who said speed was involved?
     
     Top
  10. no references, just a perception that more serious single vehicle accidents seem to happen here compared to england. maybe it's just the reporting, but the types of cars driven in the two countries by young and inexperienced drivers are certainly different
     
     Top
  11. There are far too many restrictions on probationary cars as it is, while the most dangerous cars for Pplaters (Falcons and Commodores) are perfectly legal.

    I know many 18-21year olds with really nice turbo and supercharged cars that have a great deal of respect for the power and wouldn’t do anything that could harm them or their car.
    On the other hand I also know several d*cks that have been given the family commodore, falcon, laser and written it off within weeks.
    I think the main difference is - You can have plenty of fun in a 2l turbo manual safely... but to have fun in a commodore you really need to drive like a lunatic or risk falling asleep.
    It all comes down to education. Plus scrapping the auto licence couldn’t hurt.
     
     Top
  12. I agree with James, all P platers should have 2L turbos, and commodores should be banned.

    My distorted logic is on par with the OP.
     
     Top
  13.  Top
  14. Rob,

    I wasn't trying to make a point - just a comment. Clearly I am in the minority here by thinking inexperienced drivers should be restricted to less powerful cars than they currently are. Maybe I'm wrong and there is no correlation between experience, engine power and likelihood of having a serious accident but if so why do we already ban P-platers from turbos and V8s? Surely having already made this distinction, it's only a matter of where the break point is? It's my opinion that 125kW/tonne is too powerful, but that's only my opinion and I've no data to back it up.
     
     Top
  15. I didn't say that at all. I was just pointing out that irresponsible people don’t need ‘fast’ cars to be dangerous. 90% of cars impounded under hoon laws are commodores and falcons, family sedans used inappropriately. Younger people who drive performance cars are hardly an issue yet cop a lot of negative publicity due to street racing and the like.

    The next time you read an article ‘4 teens die in horrific crash,’ look at the mangled wreck in the photo and 9 times in 10 it will be your average boring sedan. I’m not claiming that performance cars aren’t dangerous because they can be. Most of the time the problem is the tool driving, not the tool they are driving.


    Guess what car it was....A commodore!!! who would have thought](*,)
     
     Top
  16. Simon you raise a valid point which everybody seems keen to avoid. How is it that on a bike your restricted during the learning phase, but not to the same degree in a car? It is a double standard and an interesting one at that.


    .
     
     Top
  17. in vicco you pretty much catnt drive a v8 or turbo car on your p's. so i think the restrictions are pretty equivalent.

    I think an SXV550 or similar (lams approved) bikes are a hell of allot more dangerous to an inexperienced 18 year old than a v8 fairlane or a turbo deisel ute, both of which are banned for p platers

    i think the point is pretty invalid. the restrictions are more than enough. infact the new vic P plate scheme is excessive. you will always have young kids doing stupid things as long as they think its cool. you can die just as easily in a barina as you would a commodore... actually probably easier if you have ever seen a small car in an accident.
     
     Top

  18. I can think of a few,
    The key difference is bike riders usually buy their own bike to use during their restriction phase. There are relatively cheap and not shared within the family or household.
    With cars most young people start off driving their parent’s cars for weeks, months or years before buying their own. If Vic roads started telling parents that their teenagers aren’t allowed to drive their car and instead must buy another, smaller 4clyinder car, younger drivers would receive even less experience then they do now.
    Also learner drivers have 2 years (usually) on the roads with a fully licence driver before flying solo.
    Motorcyclists are effectively on their own with no assistance so the power issue is more important.

    There are several overlapping systems still running in Vic but the latests (as far as I can remember) is
    -No turbo (excluding diesel)
    -No supercharger
    -No V8's
    -No Engine modifications at all (My friend can't drive his dad's 78' mini with a worked cam?)

    AND I think they have even ditched the 125kw/tonne rule, so a P plater car drive a lotus elise,
    Honda s2000... The laws are crazy and much more restrictive than bike restrictions
     
     Top
  19. Im firmly convinced that the wowsers who pen these laws simply add more and more conditions to an already bloated system, simply so they can get their paycheck.
     
     Top