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VIC Speed limit logic

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by Donuts, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. I'd love to know the 'logic' behind setting speed limits. Roadworks have been going on (everywhere) and a road I travel frequently (Frankston-Flinders Road) is affected.

    My frustration began when cheese cutters started going up everywhere, especially straight stretches of road for no obvious reason. Now it has peaked - a large section of the roadwork is complete, and to compliment the fact the road is now safer (shoulders), the speed limit has dropped for 70 to 60 for an almost 3 KM stretch!

    Why would that be I wondered? The area is fairly busy during the day, but after 10 pm the road is empty... What possible motive could there be to drop the limit?
    Google Map
    Point B. The only mobile speed camera location in Somerville, smack bang in the middle of the new 60 zone (which has no "Limit Changed" signs, mind you). Even better - this camera primarily operates between 8 and 11 pm... the times when the road is quiet and perfectly capable of carrying traffic at speeds well above 60.

    ](*,) I hate this state.

  2. Could be worse. There was a road near my place they rezoned from 100kph down to 80 where I saw a speed camera setting up just as the council workers were quite literally putting in the last screw on the newly installed speed limit signs.
    Certainly convinced me that at least some speed limit changes seem to be more about raising revenue than safety, especially given how many poorly maintained dirt roads it's perfectly legal to do 100kph on.
  3. Well, the logic behind the 40km for roads works is based on studies that show you are unlikely to be fatally injured (either peds or car occupants) below 30km/h, Vicroads figure you'll break enough to be below 30 if you need to.

    As to everything else... Perhaps they have a dartboard with random limits?

    You must be in Vic.
  4. It's called 'introduce a policy' by stealth. When a road is having a safety 'treatment' done to it, it now invariably includes dropping the speed limit to make it 'safer'

    I don't think anybody in australia has openly declared they adopting the 'vision zero' policy. But they're definitely moving down that path.

    There has recently been a proposal for Tasmania to drop down to 90k/ph on rural roads (for no apparent reason).
    Other than out of all of the States and Territories in Australia, they are most likely to adopt it with the minimum of resistance.

    All the while the rest of Australia (i.e. you and me) watch on and think to ourselves, poor bastards, but at least it's not happening here.

    However, over the next 10 years Australia will be moving towards a National Licensing and Road Safety Scheme. Where all the States will have uniformity in areas such as 'speed limits'.

    How's this for a bit of fun. We will most likely still have 110 zones on some highways, however the National speed limit will probably be set at 90. Meaning if you go over the POSTED speed limit by 10k/ph, you will have broken the law to the tune of 30k/ph......and that's license losing time.

    It's also the thin edge of the wedge.

    The logic behind dropping the speed limits is simple. Speed kills. Enough people believe that now that the powers above us can implement their agenda without causing too much fuss.

    They know they can't stop people crashing, or they've turned their backs on trying. So the only alternative is to have 'safe' crashes. And that's where the logic trail ends I'm afraid.

    By all means go out and crash, but please do it safely.
    Thankyou. :-s
  5. Democracy is meant to stop this type of dictatorial behaviour. The speed limit reductions are the result of a non elected body (VicRoads) given the power to change law (speed limits) under the guise of implementing law. This is an arrogant and monumental failure of the lazy and revenue hungry Brumby Labor Government. It’s early days for the Libs but hopefully they will repair the damage Labor did and restore democracy to Victoria.

    I also agree that the "Vision Zero Results" policy is being used to gain revenue.
  6. There is no logic...

    Some sections are ridiculous... 60 to 70 to 50 to 80... I don't have an example like that but there's stuff like it out there where the speed limit changes every couple 100 metres.

    They should reduce the number of speed zones and just have a few posted speeds such as 50 for suburban streets & roadwords & school zone, 80 major roads, 100 FWY or straight line roads with no traffic lights.

    That would make life so much easier.

  7. Maybe, but I don't think it's as much about the collection of fines as we like to believe.

    Hey here's something else to ponder. While 'safety' treatments of roads are automatically including the reduction of the speed limits, it's worth bearing in mind that 'our' TAC levy is being used to perform 'safety' treatments on some 'black spot' rural roads. Black Spur ring any bells?

    The interesting thing that they don't want anybody to know is, while they may be reducing 'motorcycle' accidents, the side benefit is there is also a reduction in 'car' accidents. Meaning the road was dangerous to ALL road users, but motorcyclists have had to foot the bill. cheeky eh?
  8. I can give you an example, the Midland highway between Buninyong and Sebastopol. 9 speed zones in just 2km which includes 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and 100kph zones. :mad:
    Not surprisingly it's also a popular location for speed cameras and umarked cars.
  9. In another thread the link ISCN provided to a “Vision Zero Results” document had a section where it was basically said that there should be no accidents. Lowering the speed limits would give the police a greater opportunity to charge anyone in an accident with speeding.
  10. the government and agencies running under the government have been abusing the power given to them for a long time, and we all know this, but the worst thing is we let them.

    at the end of the day we can biatch and moan and it is irritating that this goes on, with more cars and motorcycles on the road then ever before and the infrastructure not keeping up, toll roads, increasing speed cameras and road toll with decreasing driver education, but the buck stops with us, we let this happen and i hate that we dont do anything about it except biatch.
    the simple fact is our government no longer fears its people and are abusing the power they feel they have but there is an easy way to solve this.
    Step 1 is to get the majority of people on our side then on of 2 options
    A. we all just dont pay speeding fines and or parking fines and toll ways and ignore all following letters, the government cant suspend the license or imprison majority of people and will realise they've lost this fight. or
    B. if every person issued a speeding and or parking fine takes there legal right to object the fine and be seen by the courts which would clog the system for decades and once again the government would have to fold.

    also i would like to see a yearly report, like the one in germany, as to where every cent of revenue raised by speed cameras goes, cause it sure as hell aint helping us not crash...

    /rant over
  11. Cool, something I can help with.

    When designing road speeds, specifically speed limits, engineers adhere to a standard. In a section of road, the speed limit not vary by more than 20km/hr over a certain distance plus a few other goodies.

    ACT Road Design Notes

    Which is pretty much the case everywhere... It works well, it gives clear definition to the kinda of "area" you are in and the conditions you need to ride to.

    However, state policy (ie. bureaucrats that have sweet fa idea about speed limits or standards) often governs what a speed limit is.

    40km/hr is the general "road-works" speed limit. Here in SA its 25km/hr. Yep, 25km/hr. Anybody know how slow that is and how long it takes to clear the road work zone? Wow...

    Looking further... Found MUARC weighing in on the speed limit issue.

    Accepted Engineering Design Philosphy

    Basically they are saying, engineers have a clue and we should all listen to them... The pacific hwy in places is designed to carry traffic at well above 110km/hr. It is because of the above reasons (design speed in adjoining sections etc) that it isn't posted higher. Engineers find the lower of the above two and apply it with reference to the first quote.

    Funny thing is, this is MUARC's take on the situation.

    And the highest number of clueless cagers per capita. Especially when placed against countries that actually endorse training and empowerment versus enforcement and restriction. We all know MUARC have an agenda and that is not what I'm questioning here. What I am questioning is, who is actually designing the speed limits on our roads? And when does a speed limit become too low?

    A little bit of a standard.

    Part of a standard

    This excerpt seems to pulled directly to support MUARC's line. I'd love to get a looksie at the entire standard. I would think there are some "if, buts and howevers" attached to that.

    Fact of the matter is, designing to the 85th percentile will soon become no longer plausible. The 85th percentile is an assumption that some people will speed no matter what and that in this range the majority of law abiding citizens can be accounted for with a safe speed limit. However, ABS, Traction Control, Active Stability Control and all the other goodies the car companies are rolling out mean simply this:

    Joe Bloggs can drive faster with less skills than his predecessors due to the increased intelligence of his/her vehicle. Ergo, 80ks on the Pacific Hwy will become more and more absurd as cars get smarter and have more active features.

    I know people who ride around the city at 100ks an hour. They are in no danger of crashing unless another car causes them too. Which is why they only do it on the very rare occasion. Point is, the average motorcyclist could theoretically do 2x the speed limit safely. Ergo, 80ks on the Pacific Hwy is not for motorcyclists anyway. I don't advocate motorcyclist speeding, its incredibly dangerous when you have high differential speeds.

    But what if the 85th percentile "speed" is say 60ks an hour and the design limit is like 110km/hr. But the speed limit says 40km/hr. Or 30km/hr.

    Better scenario: Pacfic Hwy is changed to 80 the entire way. The 90min trip from newcastle to sydney becomes 120mins or more.

    When does common sense take over and the laws be adjusted to better suit the situation? When does common sense take over and dictate that people need to travel in private transport efficiently otherwise they will not obey.

    (Funny thought with respect to road fatalities, wouldn't the number naturally decrease with better safety technology on the road? Ie. less people die because they have more technology saving them? On the same note, motorcycle safety technology hasn't really change... Interesting though.)
  12. Any pretense that the Government is reducing speed limits solely for reasons of safety is however shot down by the fact that it is only roads with high traffic flows that seem to be being constantly reduced.

    Rural backroads on the other hand have been left alone, both in terms of changes to speed limits and urgently needed maintanence. This creates the ridiculous scenario of having brand-new, multi-laned roads being set with a ridiculous 70kph limit, whilst it's still legal to do 100kph on some potholed goat-track in the middle of nowhere.

    Of course lowering the limit on a busy road has far more potential for generating revenue.
  13. It's the same if you drive through Ballarat "the old way" from West to East or vice versa instead of using the freeway.
  14. edit: this post has been modified due to exceeding known safe limits for cynicism.

    (BTW, jd, rural roads within 100 km of Melbourne are NOT being left alone. Wish they were.)
  15. I had a person within VicRoads tell me that they deliberately leave roadworks limits up as long as they can after the job is finished - for 'safety" reasons.

    It's apparent that even when there is no real need for serious speed reductions they take the opportunity to implement them.

    I'm not convinced that there is purely a "fund raising" aspect to these. I think it stems from the fact that many of the people I've come across involved with road safety really don't enjoy driving (or riding). Unlike those of us here they see it as a dreadful necessity and don't comprehend that it can be enjoyable.

    Apart from a very few scooter riders (and not many of them either) anyone on a motorcycle actively enjoys it. And every motorcyclist I know would be happy to be given a good car and a good road to enjoy if a bike wasn't available.

    The problem is that a lot of the people involved with road safety (not all, I hasten to say) actively dislike being on the road and think that anyone who does is positively strange. They can't see the issues in reducing speed limits - they tend to be very conservative drivers (at best) and often don't drive enough to realise the consequences of the rules and limits they are pushing for.

    You won't find many of these people with a passion for cars (let alone bikes). Look through the staff parking area at VicRoads sometime and you'll see what I mean. Lots of what I'd call "ordinary" cars. Nothing wrong with them as basic transport, but there'll be very few European cars, even fewer perfomance cars, very very few motorcycles or scooters and I doubt you'll find a single car that could be called an enthusiasts car in the sense of an unusual or interesting older vehicle.

    Those that are there will be certainly not belong to anyone involved in the safety area.
  16. That said...why do we, as a population, accept being ruled over by these OBVIOUSLY incompetent, un-qualified, un-educated, ill-informed, biased, illogical pencil pushing useless carbon based lifeforms ?????????

  17. Most people need it. Most people need to feel safe and don't value liberty. Mostly they are afraid to die.
    Don't know what it is that makes us different.
  18. Competence, commonsense, I.Q. higher than shoe size?
    The main difference is an understanding of the word "responsibility" and the fact that everyone has some. That is what I think anyhow.
  19. I can understand that for a spray seal resurfacing project where there will be heaps of loose gravel flying around but I seem to remember the state government was going to mandate the prompt removal of temporary roadwork limits when there was nothing going on.