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NSW Small stack - who is at fault

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by Turk, May 5, 2011.

  1. I know I'm a new rider but yer first stack already...

    I will be as honest as possible.
    Filtering through traffic, everybody stopped.
    Car's start moving I pull into the lane in my left infront of a camry, im still pretty far out to the right side of the lane though.
    Car ahead of me on right lane decides to jump across to the left.
    I come hard on the brakes (I was accelerating with traffic) and the camry behind me clips my rear tyre, I go down.

    This happens in a period of about 2-3 seconds.

    The hit on the camry is right under the right headlight on the corner of the bumper. There are just black tyre marks on the bumper that were rubbing off.

    My left blinker is gonskies the frame around there is cracked, and a few scratches, overall looks pretty shocking but all in the one fairing. Gear lever gave me problems but I adjusted (there is grease under where the gearstick lever goes into the transfer case, is that supposed to be open?), and the bike wont idle properly, I'm thinking the bike didnt like running on its side for 20 seconds. Im fine btw.

    My thoughts are he hit from behind, but seeing as the clip was so far to the right of his bumper, was it my fault because I cut in too close? The scratch was definitely on the front of his bumper though, not the front quarter panel. He is adamant it was my fault, but says he won't bother following it up if his car is fine. Normally I would just leave it, but **** my pride is hurt driving for 8 years without a stack, and haven't even been beeped at on the bike. And the fairing does look pretty ****ed.

  2. A plod would probably book you. He would talk the cager behind you into saying you cut him off then slammed the brakes. Or were lane splitting. I take it was a four lane carriage way. (two lanes each way) So left lane right wheel track.
    Ethically he should be booked for not leaving enough distance. But did you cut him off.
    Did the car in front cut you though ???. If you can prove that and the guy behind you stays quite then he would get the blame. I think.... Who knows when you roll the dice with plods. Boring day and you all get fined lol
    For mine it's the guy in front and the one behind. Front for cutting and causing you to brake. And he DID NOT USE HIS BLINKER. And the guy behind for not leaving enough distance.
  3. You were riding defensively and the car behind ran into you. Not your fault.
    The car driver will say you moved into the path of his car and suddenly hit the brakes causing the crash. Not his fault.
    Report it to the cops and claim insurance.
  4. turk, it would probably be considered that you are at fault in the case of filtering and a bingle....

    I would leave this alone for awhile as a practice in sydney...we have enough idiot drivers who change lanes like this.....stick to the bus and transit lanes
  5. This is my thinking. It would always appear as though I took the gamble by filtering and lost.

    Oh ps I don't have insurance so it would be me fighting his insurance company. Im thinking I should probably just leave it be? Anybody got a spare zzr250 left fairing and blinker? :angel:
  6. in my opinion, if you have decent evidence (ie a photo) showing damage to the front of his car that proves you were hit from behind, then claim.

    he can make any excuse he wants but at the end of the day AFAIK rear end accidents are black and white when it comes to insurers..

    i was hit from behind on my bike recently and did not have to pay an excess when i made my claim too.
  7. Without independent witnesses it is hard to say if you cut them off.

    I would say that you could argue that you didn't cut them off. They will probably tell you that you are at fault (to bluff) and try not to pay your damage. You would probably have to sue them for that.

    For their damage I am sure that they will threaten you that they are going to sue you but unless it is over a grand they probably won't take it to court as they might lose and have to pay legal fees plus you would win your damage above.

    So what is likely to happen is each will pay for own, unless there is a witness.

    Don't talk to the insurance company tell them to deal with you in writing, tell them that you were hit from behind, send them a letter of demand for your damage even if you don't expect to collect as it will make them less likely to sue you. Get a quote now for the damage at full new replacement costs to put in the letter of demand. You can still fix it with second hand parts. Keep the damaged parts.
  8. If the other driver is disinclined to follow it up, for the sake of an indicator and a fairing panel I'd avoid the grief and chalk it up to experience.
  9. No offense but can I suggest that, as a new rider, you leave the filtering alone for a while. Only until you've gained the experience to recognise the increased hazards properly etc.

    In this case, I would have recognised that, if I myself can see a gap in the traffic on my left which is big enough for me to get into when filtering, the car on my front right (in whose blind spot I am), will have seen it too. Chances are, since everyone is stopped, he'll want to get into the 'winning' lane and move with it.

    Your mistake here was to not have made yourself visible to him:
    The car behind you (of course) can see you.
    The car in front of you, well, that's for you to keep your eye on
    The car to your left: there isn't one.
    The car to your right is your hazard. I would have gone forward in the space so that I'm ahead of his left side mirror and visible to him.

    The second lesson here is about decision making:
    You always have one of three options: accelerate, swerve or brake.
    Braking (well, we saw what that one did)
    Since you were positioned to the right of the lane (that's about where I'd be too, though not toofar out right), I would have swerved to the left before trying to brake (buy myself a couple more seconds)....or (more likely), would have swerved and accelarated to the left of the car in front of me.

    Just braking doesn't give you any more escape options. It actually exposes you more, when the rest of the traffic is moving.

    All that being said:
    Looking at it cold, the facts are that you were in the lane, taffic started moving, a hazard occurred and you applied the brakes.

    The car behind you should have maintained a safe distance for just such a possibility!!

    Report it and Claim!

  10. To me it comes down soley to the car behind you's fault. The car in front caused you to brake suddenly, but did not cause an accident between you two, you were functional enough on the brakes to avoid it. The car behind you was not functional on the brakes to avoid colliding with you. If you are travelling in the same lane as someone, and brake and they hit you they should be at fault. Even if you brake for no apparent reason (there could be a bee in your helmet and you are highly allergic). Whether its worth chasing up depends on the cost of the damages.

    Although to be hyper critical of you, in this situation I always move far left as quickly as possible to make my self more visable to the car in front and give me a buffer for this circumstance as well as claiming the spot from the car behind me. You could have very easily avoided the situation.
  11. Did you make a legitimate lane change by indicating etc?
    How closely did you move in front of the Camry in bike lengths?
    Did the driver of the Camry let you in without having to do anything drastic to avoid you?
    How long after the lane change did the event take place?
    What was your following distance behind the vehicle in front?
    What was the following distance of the vehicle behind?
    How fast were you going?

    Your position within the lane is irrelevent so long as you were wholly within the lane. In most circumstances the following vehicle would be at fault as it is their responsibility to stay back and provide a safe distance.

    As for filtering or not, whether you did or not doesn't matter as the event was not the result of filtering. In effect you carried out an overtake. If you moved (squeezed) in front of a moving vehicle that then had no time to redjust the following distance before the brake lights went on, then your overtake was not safe. If you left enough time and space for them to percieve and react then the fault may well be theirs.

    If in your heart of hearts you know you did the wrong thing and the driver is prepared to let it go, then you should cop it and chalk it up to experience. I'll be interested in your responses to the above questions.
  12. Yep, suck it up mate. Filtering is the act of taking on ALL responsibility for ourselves. So we end up wearing the consequences.

    The car in front of you couldn't have known you were there, he saw a car sized gap and jumped at it. That's not at all unusual so you have to allow for it.

    The car behind you couldn't have expected it, and allowed you to slip in front of him without giving you grief. They will jump on the horn sometimes because they don't want to get involved if you stuff it up. Like you did this time.

    Filtering is about knowing and expecting certain driver behaviours, it's not about find a gap any gap. Because the driver caught you off guard it shows you're still learning.

    This might sting but it's tough love, if we continue to crash while filtering it's all the more reason to police the practice out of existence. So the onus is on us to get it right everytime.
  13. Look at this way, if I was driving the camry I would of seen my bike (I know he saw the bike) seen the car cut off and jumped on the brakes as well. If I was driving the car there would of been no accident. He didn't jump on the brakes fast enough, I did. I'm pissed now because my bike rides like shit at the moment and I would say its his fault. If I can fix it myself (the mechanicals, the cosmetic I will leave be) Ill leave it, if not I'm chasing him for it.

    See new thread :(
  14. Thanks for the info Turk. Like I said the filtering thing isn't really the issue here simply because your were attempting to merge into a lane which is in effect an overtake. But all the same lets look at the facts. You were travelling at about 20ish - so that's about 5-6 metres per second-ish. You say you left about a bike length between you and the nose of the vehicle as you moved in front. Your ZZR is about 2050mm in length so in effect you moved in front of the Camry allowing a following time of about .3-.4 of a second. Lets be generous and call it half a second, which isn't really enough time for anyones reactions - and lets not forget that as you say, the driver was accelerating at the time so it may have been more or indeed less.

    Sorry mate, but the physics don't lie. However, let he who is without sin cast the first stone - we've all been there and the trick is to learn from our mistakes. I commend you on your honesty and hope others will learn from your story. Ride safe.
  15. I'll just add a bit of speculation here. Was there an obvious reason why the vehicle pulled out of the right lane? Like a car turning right and stopping traffic? It always pays when filtering to look out for these things, not just at the cars in your immediate vicinity.
  16. Quoted for truth.
  17. Traffic was stopped, the car on the right lane saw the left lane was moving faster and jumped over.

    rider5, I understand your point now RE stopping distance for him. I have definitely learned from this and it can still be brought down to rider inexperience. I did grab the brakes too hard where in my car I would of only just set the brake lights on and waited out what the car would do in front.

    Thanks for all the tips and info guys.