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[SE Melbourne] Looking for a Mentor

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by resonator, Dec 7, 2007.

  1. Hi,
    I've just finished reading Twist of the Wrist for the second time a couple of days ago and I'm thinking I could benefit from some help with implementing the tips that are covered in the book.

    Some of the things that I'm having trouble with is loading up the outside peg when turning in, how much throttle is needed to maintain a 60-40 balance during cornering, and how to tighten up a turn mid corner.

    Is anyone interested in helping?

  2. Raven's out your side of town and a good bloke to talk to... Maybe drop him a PM?

    In answer to your questions:

    1) Don't weight the outside peg on turn-in - in fact, a lot of racers even stomp down on the INSIDE peg to get the bike over. Once you're in the corner and leaning, that's a good time to push down with the outside leg as you wind the throttle on. It loads the rear ever so slightly to give you that bee's doodle more traction as you power through.

    2) The idea here is simply to make sure you're accelerating through the corner, not coasting through or maintaining steady speed. A bike feels front-heavy and bulky when you're coasting through, but when you're on the gas you'll find it's easier to adjust your line, and it feels more confident and willing to turn, for want of a better description.

    3) The key if you find yourself in a turn that's tighter than you expected is simple and yet very difficult to go through with. You've got to look as far around the corner as you can, ignoring the approaching gravel or centreline, countersteer the bike in harder, and keep the gas on. Don't go for the brakes, you'll crash 5 times out of 10.

    So yeah, hit Raven up for a trip to the spur, he really knows his stuff and is a good patient bloke to work with.
  3. 1. I actually always load up the inside peg during both turn in and throughout the corner. So your saying I should transfer my weight to the other leg mid corner (hopefully without unstabilising the bike)?

    2. I guess that I'm doing that part right.

    3. By keeping the gas on, do you mean continue rolling on the throttle or stop rolling on throttle and maintain what you have? My guess would be the latter.

    I have a feeling raven offered me some help once... I'll hit him up with a pm.
  4. 1) Like I say, it's a very small difference you're talking about here, you don't need to stomp the thing or change your body position, just apply some pressure with your outside leg as you're leaned over.

    3) You'd need some big ol' bollocks to roll it on when you're shitting yourself in a tightening corner. The most important things are not to roll OFF, to force yourself to look as far around the corner as you can, and to trust the bike and smoothly countersteer it in harder.
  5. Yep...shoot me a PM, and we'll talk about stuff. :)
  6. What Loz is trying to say, and its in the book, is that if you roll right off the throttle when you think you're running wide then it just makes the bike stand up and run even wider.

    Excellent book to read though, i still go back to it every few months and re-read and you'll find stuff that hadn't quite sunk in other times or that makes more sense because you can apply it better when you ride. Just got the DVD as well, have to watch this weekend.
  7. Do you have a DVD of TOTW2, or is it the first one?

    I've seen the first one, it's beyond shitful. If that's what you bought, you're in for a nasty surprise!
  8. im like you resonator i would like to take a ride with someone around my area i know MG would take a ride with me but i cant PM anyone yet.
  9. [​IMG]
    When I said that, I was actually talking about a different kinda ride [​IMG]



    Seriously tho, I'll ride with you no probs at all, but I've only been on the
    road 18mths, if that, so I'm not the person to be asking for help.
    I need mentoring of my own. [​IMG] if I mislead you there Tigger :oops:
  10. I'm happy to help too. Fire me a PM with your phone number, and I'll give you a call and we'll work something out.
  11. :shock: hahaha MG thats ok i have a real good sense of humour.
    But i dont think ill be taking you up on that kind of ride.well to say not the pole dancing type any way :LOL:
  12. In TOTW, the whole weight the outside peg and use it as a levering point to make a super strong counter steer always confuses me. They call it cross steering, or pivot steering...

    Level 3 CSBS teaches to you to push down on the outside peg well before the corner to help get your knee locked against the tank. That makes sense to me, because if you're locked onto the bike, your tension on the bars is reduced and that means you are "out of the bike's way".

    Simply weighting the outside peg doesn't actually change the traction picture - it's a common misconception. If you pretty much remain sitting in the same position, the bike wont care where the weight acts on the bike. It doesn't sound right, but I've gone around this merry go round several times. If the C.of.G doesn't move in the bike/rider system, then the bike wont care how the rider's weight is supported. And the CofG will not change if the rider is sitting plumb on the seat, then takes some weight load in the pegs putting the "weight down lower".

    ...I know, it sounds wrong doesn't it... conceptually, I disagree with it, but intellectually it's correct. :-s

    As to the 40/60 weight picture, any acceleration will help. See, when you tip in, you need to crack the throttle open a fraction more anyway, or else you'll slow down. Once you're settled in the corner and can spot the exit, gently and progressively roll the throttle on until you can lift the bike up, at which point you can then accelerate more heavily.

    Having said that, a bike will happily corner with a 50/50 weight picture, but is most stable with the weight bias towards the back.

    +1 Loz on the reducing radius corner. Contort if you have to, but lock onto the vanishing point and try to get the bike over to it. It takes bollocks alright and there's no guarantee you wont lose it if you've come in hot into a tightening radius corner, but you will have a chance, especially if not at 10/10ths. Rolling off and braking AND trying to steer towards the vanishing point demands a lot of traction... if the traction isn't there, a lowside is likely... much better than a highside...

    Another thing I've done in a couple of tightening radius corners that caught me out, is weight shift even more and go completely upper body floppy and let as much weight as I can fall into the inside of the corner. If you've done level1 CSBS, this is like my version of the hook turn. The weight in and low helps gain some lean angle credits, and the floppy arms means even less inputs from me back into the bike over any mid corner bumps.

    Great to see a rider thinking about their riding resonator!
  13. I disagree that the bike doesn't care how the rider's weight is supported, but on a special case scenario. Weighting up the pegs more with the rider's weight introduces the legs more as a form of "suspension" for the rider's weight and how that acts on the bike.

    As always, the trick is to be as loose and relaxed as possible on the bike. I can name a number of corners on the roads that I travel on where if you want to get through them quickly, suspending your weight more on the pegs and "decoupling" the rider's mass from the bike as much as possible will make a massive difference.

    I will concede though that this is a bit of a special case, where the road bumps and undulations are severe enough that the bike's suspension starts to become overwhelmed if the rider doesn't assist it in some manner. For smoother surfaced roads, it's not a big deal, and the bike's suspension should be adequate. If you're having to decouple your weight from the bike through smooth corners in order to get through them quickly, then your suspension setup sucks. That's another (important) topic though.

    In general, the purpose of weighting the outside peg is really more as an act of locking the outside knee into the tank cutout, just as Rob says. Still, this really isn't all that important IMO. If the bike's suspension is setup right and not throwing you about, you can pretty much just slouch off the bike and be as relaxed as possible, and the cornering forces will hold you against the bike, with perhaps the calf of the outside leg hooked over the seat being more than enough "anchorage".

    Your outside arm should be resting loosely against the top of the tank, and your inside arm/elbow should be down low towards the ground, which will naturally drag your upper body across and down into the corner as well.

    The important thing to do is to relax. Mid-way through a corner do a systems check on your muscle usage. If you're holding on tight, then try to relax more. The more you relax, the more you decouple your body's mass from the bike, allowing the bike to move more easily independently of your own weight, and assisting it in holding the road better. In short, it's fine if the bike is moving around - but it's bad if you're moving around with it too. The best corners I've taken in my memory are those where I could feel that the bike was moving around independently underneath me, rather than gripping onto the bike for grim life.

    I think that the roll-on thing is a bit of a misnomer. It's like as Rob says. In a long corner, once you're settled, the throttle is partially open and driving the bike through the corner at a fairly constant speed. You're really only rolling on once the path to the exit is clear and you can see what the corner is doing.

    Here's a tip - if you've got a fuel-injected bike and it has an O2 sensor - typically located around the collector of the exhaust system, it can pay to remove the O2 sensor since it can make for jerky off-on throttle transitions. My fuel injected bikes used to surge a bit at times on off-on throttle movements until I removed the O2 sensor. O2 sensors are great for fine-tuning emissions during idling, but man they can suck for finer throttle control mid-corner as the closed-throttle corner entry gases can confuse the sensor, and cause it to give excessive feedback to the ECU when you crack the throttle again.

    Agreed on going completely loose and "falling" to the inside of the bike as much as possible on a decreasing radius corner while reducing the throttle (DO NOT cut the throttle - just ease off on it a touch). Do that while pushing on the inside bar and you'll likely make it 99 times out of 100 unless you're on the absolute edge of traction - in which case the problem started before corner entry. It's only a problem if you panic and move the bike's weight too much. Go loose and assist the bike's suspension as much as possible, and get the weight of your lump as far to the inside of the corner as possible, and you'll be surprised at how quickly your bike is capable of turning.
  14. Stew, you are absolutely correct.

    Double springing the rider's weight in a bumpy corner makes a lot of difference.
  15. Rob - Stew!...Two excellent posts that should be beneficla to alot of riders if they bother to pay attention.

    I'm not sure if it's relevant to the Blackbird only, but at times where I am having troubles with my technique through the twisties, I have found that I can sometimes re-find my balance and control, by taking a hand away from the left hand grip completely, mid-corner...if everything is in the right place, I can continue through that corner one handed quite calm and steady at aggressive lean angles....
    It's not something I would advocate to inexperienced riders AT ALL...but by doing this, it quickly shows if my body position/weight-balance/power settings etc, are correct, relevant to that corner.

    From there, I can make adjustments to bring everything back into line the way they should be. (to the best of my current abilities, anyway) :oops:

    As you said Stew...Relaxation is a key ingrdient to good cornering, and often we will find ourselves more tense through the arms and torso than we might have first thought...making a mantal note of how we are situated mid-coner will highlight it for us.

    I to, have always been in two minds about weighting the pegs...Now it's clearer...As it turns out...Both of you confirmed that what I have been doing is'nt too far off the mark...thanks for clarifying that point for me.

  16. The peg-weighting theory actually comes from dirt-track riding where every ounce of traction at the back is sacred. Blokes like Kenny Roberts started to find they could push the rear wheel down a bit harder and find a touch more traction if they pushed down on the outer peg as they went through sideways, and carried that technique over to road riding at 11 tenths on a GP bike where traction's at the same premium.

    Like I say, it makes four fifths of five eighths of f*ckall difference on the road, but it's not a bad habit to get into as it helps you lock onto the bike with your legs too.
  17. Raven, I really dig taking my left hand away from the bar in a RH corner too! ...just to remind myself not to counter the input from one side with the input from the other side. It's a cool thing to do :cool:

    I mentioned it to the more comfortable "advanced" noobs at the Kew Bvd noob day :cool:

    DrMat is right... something leaps out at me too every time I reread the books. There's always something new to learn. :)
  18. Loz: oooo its TOTW 1.... didn't get to watch it this weekend... but damn i'm deflated now!! I haven't read TOTW 1 only 2 so figured it would be as useful as i found that.
  19. Yeah, sadly, the TOTW1 book is pretty crappy (and totally racetrack focused) - and the DVD is even worse. But hey, happy watching! :p
  20. Wow, this thread has been busy over the weekend.

    Flux and Rob, thanks for your posts. Although they are very descriptive and helpful, I think I will definitely need some advise perfecting it. :)

    But for the meantime, let me see if I've got this right.

    1. As you approach the corner, load up the outside peg and shift your weight to the inside of the bike. I use my outside leg to push my arse of the other side of the seat. Is that what is meant by loading up the outside peg, or am I by happy coincidence doing the right thing as a means to shifting my body?

    2. Load up the inside peg to assist tipping the bike into the corner. At the same time roll on the throttle a little to maintain a 50/50 weight balance. Rest your outside forearm on the tank to help prevent unwanted steering inputs. Drop your inside shoulder as low as possible.

    3. Relax, hold the turning angle and speed while looking for the exit. What is the ideal way to support my body weight considering a smooth road? I've found that after a good ride my legs are so tired that my knees shake and threaten to give way under my own body weight, and I walk around like a robot for a couple of days.

    4. Spot the exit and roll on the throttle while standing the bike up.

    5. Look for the next corner.

    I went for a bit of a fang through Pakenham -> Cockatoo -> Gembrook -> Pakenham last night (crazy fun). I hit a bit of a rough road mid corner and my front tire started to push due to not really spending enough time on the road. I didn't let go of the throttle, just slowed down the roll on. The bike was stable, and recovered easy. I'm not asking because I shit myself and want to make sure this doesn't happen again, because surprisingly it didn't really faze me. I was wondering could have the situation have been worse if I continued rolling the throttle on thereby reducing the weight on the front tyre?