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RFID - a draft policy

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by TonyE, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. Some time ago I created a draft policy statement on RFID devices. Given the latest news that Spain is planning to move to an electronic identification system for all motor vehicles within the next few years this is an issue that has now become of significant importance.

    I circulated the original out to the various AMC executive and MRA (Vic) members a while back and I've incorporated their responses into it.
    In general the belief from everybody is that it will eventually happen so I've aimed at softening the impact as much as possible.

    Comments please gentlemen.

    Draft position statement of Electronic Identification for Motorcycles.

    1. Studies are currently being conducted in various places around the world on the implementation of Radio Frequency Identification Devices (RFID) for vehicles.

    2. The Motorcycle Riders Association (Victoria) recognises the value of such devices for identification of vehicles and for law enforcement and in aiding with the recovery of stolen vehicles.

    3. While such devices are extremely useful there is a downside to their use which, if mismanaged, has very serious privacy implications.

    4. Therefore the Motorcycle Riders Association (Vic) is prepared to consider the use of RFID only under the following circumstances.

    a. That any such implementation must be not just for motorcycles, but for all road users with no exceptions.

    b. That such devices be capable of short range identification only by land based receivers. (i.e. no satellite GPS positioning and tracking of vehicles be available)

    c. That such identification must not be used for vehicle tracking purposes.

    d. Any database matching must only be permitted for vehicles actually committing an offence, that are recorded as stolen or unregistered and that only these vehicles will have identifying information recorded.

    e. That no road user will suffer any additional fees or charges for such identification but that all associated costs to do with implementation, distribution and fitting of transponders etc., etc. shall be part of the relevant governt department's budgets.

    f. That any such identification equipment be designed such that it is safe and convenient to fit to motorcycles and scooters, be acceptable to motorcycle manufacturers and insurers and have at least a 95% reliability rate.

    g. That it is not associated with the dangerous practice of remote speed control of vehicles in any way.

    h. That full public consultation must be carried out and complete agreement obtained from all stakeholders prior to any testing and use of such equipment.

    i. That the operation, control and monitoring of all such devices and all information thus obtained remain exclusively within public sector agencies and not be outsourced to private enterprise.
  2. How about:
    "that the design, installation, operation or monitoring of such devices will never be outsourced to a third party private business for the purpose, or potential purpose, of profiting from it, due to an inherent conflict of interest between parties".

    But it will.
  3. design and installation will generally always be done by the manufacturer so that's probably not feasible - however I agree totally on the operation and monitoring. I'll add something about that.


    edit: Added now
  4. How about:

    "F*ck off."

    A friend and I have discussed this.
    It doesn't matter how many little safe guards or stipulalations you put in - they WILL be used for tolling, point to point recording for issuing speeding fines, and are but a small steeping stone to GPS sending and receiving for speed-limiters or offence recording.

    Anything like this issued to me will sit at home strapped to a 12v battery and a float charger.

    An Australian commits suicide every 5 hours.

    There is no "carnage" on our roads.

    Leave my wallet, my license, my job and my family alone, you mistakenly elected bastards.
  5. I really couldn't have said that any better myself...

    Plates work...what are the REAL benefits of RFID (note I said real, not make believe politician benefits). In my opinion EVERY group that purports to "represent" motorists/motorcyclists should oppose this to the 9th degree... "safety cameras" and radar guns were bought it to save lives, hoon laws were bought in to save motorists from themselves blah blah fcuking blah...wow hasn't that worked out well...earns government coffers a shitload of cash though!

    This will NOT have my support in ANY form and neither will any bastard who seeks to promote or water it down and tell me it's in my best interests.

    Also won't somebody think of the crims...what else will they do with their time on their 20 year stretch :LOL:
  6. Spot on. Regardless of any safegaurds, at the end of the day we would be at the mercy of politicians who (by the definition of their job) are all lying ****s who'd fcuk their own mother for the chance of a page 5 headline.

    It doesn't matter what conditions you have, they will be ignored as soon as the plan goes ahead and any support for these devises from the MRA would be really fcuking stupid. :)
  7. :WStupid:

    Nuff said
  8. the country need to focus on fixing the problem, not treating the symptoms.
    fcukin idiots.
  9. F*ck off with that shit is the best policy.

    I can see the sale of a lot of Piezo Hot water ignitors going through the roof.

    One "click" and the chip is toast ;)
  10. Quite frankly if this becomes policy and we are supplied with a transponder.

    I'm going to go and buy a F**king big hammer!!
  11. I don’t see what everyone is complaining about.... plenty of people have E-Tags around the place which already incorporate RFID technologies. Point to point tolling already exists so stipulating speed from toll times is very easy. RFID tracking to a limited degree is active now.

    Only difference from the current state of things is that check points would be placed on roads as apposed to only on motorway off ramps/tolling points.

    Note: i have no issues with RFID tags (depending of course on the details of their implementation) but gps tracking and speed limiting devices i do not agree with.

    I wonder if any of you have ever flown internationally? If you look under the stickers that the airport staff sticks on your bag you will see that some of them have an RFID chip. This allows the airport staff to track the luggage (i.e. your) every move within the airport. Haven't heard anyone complain about this yet.

    The organisation that i work for was contemplating using RFID tags imbedded into files and employee ID cards to simplify the checking in and out of files as well as track the whereabouts of documents within the office.

    it is a great technology, but if enough people don’t like the way it is implemented; and a stupid government wont listen then have mass protests, if that don’t work have a good old fashioned rebellion.
  12. The suggested limitations sound logical for an ideal world... however, i'm still concerned about the ability to change the rules after these devices manage to get onto every vehicle out there.

    The government is notorious for stuff like that. All for our greater good of course... by 'ours' I mean 'theirs'. It might save lives... we'll tell you the cost later... :roll:

    When we live in said ideal world i'll RFID my car, bike, credit cards and my own arse.

    I expect that if presented with one of these defices in the mean time, however, it will be microwaved on high and then served with chips.
  13. Any increase in subversive monitoring of the population as a whole is utterly unacceptable in a free and democratic society.

    If we want to meekly surrender our freedoms, then supporting this proposition is the right way to go about it.

    We should instead be objecting to RFID tags universally as there is no way to secure them from theft on a motorcycle, nor to guarantee their malfunction due to extreme operating conditions and exposure to the elements as occurs on motorcycles. Bikes are not like cars. You can't just tuck some device snugly away from the elements somewhere. You can't just secure the device from theft easily.

    Nothing wrong with the plate system other than it doesn't allow for 100% coverage for fully automated monitoring of society. THAT is the real issue here, and I suspect that with the recent terror attacks in Spain, THAT is the real reason behind the proposal over there. It's all fear-based knee-jerk propaganda used to swindle the population into surrendering their privacy.
  14. Given this a good deal of thought. Flux is right.

    Ultimately, you can negotiate safeguards as much as you like, but you will come to a point where you've just got to draw a line in the sand. This is it.

    No matter how the prospect is sold to the public the only real objective here is police power to monitor the public. In any sane and just society, investigation should NEVER commence until an offence has actually been committed. The prospect of these devices totally undermines that principle. Everyone knows it. It's not acceptable.

    Tony, the draft policy may be as reasonable as you like, but the very nature of universal surveillance is anathema to natural justice.

    Sorry, I don't want to see MRA being seen to give any kind of tacit approval to this system. It goes too far. It has to be opposed. You can go too far with appeasement. Negotiate your terms of surrender if the war is lost, but give the battle a good go first.
  15. http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,23462471-15306,00.html

    a Queensland Transport spokesman said agency investigations of the technology (for its potential to stop speeding motorcyclists) had failed.

    Queensland Transport had engaged a third-party provider to investigate RFID systems but none was suitable for the task, he said.

    "No current technology was available to meet Queensland Transport's requirements and further research and development was required before more appropriate technology would be available," he said.

    And your RFID is not working/non existent then they still need some way of recording you visually... :roll:
  16. Exactly. It's a useless, redundant, flawed system that offers absolutely no benefits over and above the system currently in place, other than it costs some money which the road-users will have to bear, does nothing to stop criminals who can just disable or remove or steal & replace the tags, and all it will achieve is to increase the monitoring levels of ordinary citizens who will then likely be slugged for harmless indiscretions in order to justify the huge waste of money this system will entail.

    Eastlink already need to employ a huge roomful of people just to verify that the etag signals actually match the registered vehicle plates for each and every single vehicle that travels under a tolling gantry. That alone says that they can't trust the system to operate in an independently automated fashion. For this to ever work it will be a massive bureaucratic nightmare that will need to fine road users more heavily in order to justify its existence. This will of course be spun and sold to the public as a means to reduce the road toll, for which if history has told us to date, there will be no transparently available supporting evidence for such statements.

    This is where the line in the sand gets drawn. Right here. As most of the comments in that article echoed, we don't need this system. It should be fought against, not meekly accepted with obsequious capitulation.
  17. "War is Peace"
    "Freedom is Slavery"
    "Ignorance is Strength"

  18. Lucious, here's the situation in Singapore:

    Everyone has an E-tag. They're compulsory, or at least NECESSARY for people to move about.
    As a result, no cash facilities or camera equipment need to be used at a tolling point: they just set a scanner up to charge people.

    Now that might be fine... except because it's so easy to throw up a new toll-point, they do that on any road they like to control traffic flow.
    On top of this, a computer processes what time you went through different points and calculates whether you sped or not, so it can send you a fine.

    Does anyone seriously believe, that if it was possible to control traffic everywhere via tolls; the government would do that to get results and cash instead of fixing our severely shyte public transport system? [Sydney emphasis.]
  19. While it is understandable that such a system would make it easy for a state government here to drum up revenue, isn't it just as easy for said government to put up the price of registration or certain taxes, etc?

    The way i see it is that if a government wants to make more money off its people it will do it regardless of the system that is used, i.e. the current system of fees and taxes or some system incorporating RFID technologies.

    I see no difference between speed enforcement via trip time gathered reliably from RFID tolling points and speed enforcement via fixed camera (or in Vic's case the average speed cameras). In all cases crap for safety and good for raising revenue.

    I agree with you on the fact that traffic control via tolling is a stupid idea that will never work. I think if the government stopped wasting very large sums of money on ill planned and/or stupid ideas, that the extra $$ would do a lot more then fix a crappy transport system.

    I think the idea of using RFID technologies within vehicles would be a good idea provided it was reliable, not abused by government (i hear everyone saying "yeah right!") and if it replaced our current system of vehicle registration etc... with something that was geared more towards road use and the type of vehicle used.

    For example i pay full price rego, green slip, taxes in fuel etc just like everyone else, yet i have a bike i ride atleast 85% of the time and a car that i only use some weekends. If i was paying on a usage basis one would assume that i would save money in a usage based system given that bikes would not be charged as much as cars, and that my car is only used to get shopping from up the road and for pleasure on weekends.

    I would be open to the idea if all of the drafts/proposals were resonable, dont see the point in shooting down what *could* be a good step forward before seeing full details.
  20. Of course they can just put up taxes...but putting up taxes just to gain revenue without a reason gets EVERYBODY's backs up...introducing RFID initially as a registration tool but then using it to fine people to "save us from ourselves" will slip by the public radar pretty easily...look at speed cameras for an example...initially they were designed to target problem areas now even the most ardent fan must admit they are placed to generate maximum revenue.

    The difference being at least with a fixed camera you know it's location or you know there are average speed cameras on the road you are travelling...if RFID was implemented and it was linked to a user pays type of rego system there would be RFID receivers on every road...a simple matter to turn EVERY receiver into a time/average camera...on every road...

    Hello MR Smith your rego charge for this month based on k's travelled is $120...oh and there is a small matter of you being detected exceeding the limit on the Tulla freeway for a distance of 200meters between the 5 and 6k marker at 1:35am and 22seconds...Would you like to pay with visa, mastercard or pound of flesh?

    Then you would probably agree that this is where they are going to go with this... Rego plates work, they have done for years, but you have to have Cameras and operators set up to catch people speeding...or just set up an RFID system (for Rego purposes of course:roll: ), deploy the sensors and watch the dollars roll in. Since when has a government...any government

    a) fixed something that was broken?
    b) told you the truth about it's intentions for new technology?
    c) implemented new tech that works...Collins Class Subs, Mikey?, ring any bells

    I would like to meet the Easter Bunny too...I have as much chance of that happening as an RFID system not being abused by government. We already have a system that has worked for years...rego varies depending on what you drive...I don't agree with the whole road use deal...the lack of privacy of implementing a user pays system far outweigh the benefits in my opinion.

    I agree that having multiple regos is pretty silly, when one vehicle sits in the shed and your paying for it...a solution would be discounts for multiple rego's...but then what about companies do they deserve it because they have a bigger fleet?...more cars so more discount?. I think the current system is probably the best compromise...sure some pay more than one rego but can only drive one vehicle...but thats YOUR choice...should you get subsidized servicing and insuranace too?

    I totally disagree, how many times have we as citizens been presented with proposals by goverment which when implemented were totally different to the original proposal. In the real world politicians cannot be trusted, every time their lips move the bastards are lying..do you really TRUST them to do what is right for society or what is right for them?