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Pivot Steering

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by LineNoise, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. Ok...pivot steering.

    Can someone explain to me what this should feel like?

    Am I right in saying it's just basically putting your weight through a certain part of the bike (eg. outside footpeg) or is it more complicated then that?
  2. it a combination of alot of things..

    by puting your wieght on the outside peg, you lower your centre of gravity closer to the same as that of the bikes...

    it allows a much more stable counter steer..
    it feels weird at first, it still feels a little wierd for me, but i have noticed much smoother transitions into my turns as a result..

    also anchoring you knee to the tank and using other pivot points like your foot on the outside peg takes away the need for you to wrestle with the bars!! making the bike alot easier to steer and alot more stable..
  3. Yeah I get the physics of it.

    Seems a little strange first time you think about it but once your used to it it makes a a lot of sense.

    Does feel a little strange though.
  4. i found it did feel strange.. especially since my cornering style has alot to be desired, but the results for me are noticable!! :)
  5. Rubbish. The only way to lower your centre of gravity is to lower your body.

    Quite possibly, for those who feel uncomfortable with "conventional" counter steering.

    When you press down with your outside foot, you unconsciously balance it by applying more force with your hand on the other side, causing counter-steer. It's a useful way to introduce counter-steering to people who might feel uncomfortable with the idea of turning the 'bars the wrong way.

    Yes, using your knees and feet to support your weight is always a good idea. Too many people use the 'bars for support. It might be unavoidable to some extent on some bikes, but it's always best to carry as little of your weight on your wrists as you can. Apart from reducing fatigue, it allows better control of the bike. Code talks of flapping your elbows around a bit to make sure they are loose, and you don't have a death-grip on the 'bars.
  6. When you were a little bloke, did you ever stand on the pedals of your treadlie and let go of the bars?......If yes, you are now officially an expert on both counter and pivot steering.
  7. ...and Dettol and bandaids :p :p
  8. No. I always remain seated when riding a treadly no-hands. My balance isn't *that* good.

    So you are saying there aren't many such experts about?
  9. The technique for standing no-hands treadlie riding was as I recall. Left foot on on lower pedal, right foot in 'v' of frame above crank.....it worked well for us...we took casualties sure.....but it was fun

    I don't believe I did say that. What I was trying to say was that this becomes instinctive behaviour quite unconsiously, and that most people are experts without actually knowing how or why.
  10. Sorry, I misinterpreted you.
    Can you *really* control a bicycle no-hands while standing up? I'm impressed!

    When you say that
    , are you referring to pressing down on the outside foot to steer? I would have thought that in the case of a bicycle, the practice of pressing down on the outside foot in a corner was more because the inside pedal needs to be up for tight corners, so the outside one can hold your weight more comfortably.

    Or perhaps you are referring to the idea that we all counter-steer, even without knowing it, so that the first success at riding a bicycle comes when you *don't* try to consciously steer it.

    (I am reminded of the company that in the 60s marketed steering wheels that clip onto -or replace- bicycle handlebars. It was not a roaring success....)
  12. Moike said in regards to loading the pegs:

    Rubbish. The only way to lower your centre of gravity is to lower your body.

    That's not actually right.

    Loading the pegs WILL effectively lower the centre of gravity that the bike sees, since now instead of XXkilos being supported entirely by the seat - and the whole riders weight acting like a pendulum at seat height compared to the ground, you now have a weight share between seat and pegs.

    This puts some of the weight lower down in the bike and reduces the "pendulum" effect of the rider atop the seat.

    Getting off the seat and leaning into the corner reduces the pendulum even further.

  13. I hesitate to start a war....but this is utter nonsense. No matter how much you 'load the pegs' this only alters the amount of muscular effort you are expending. You still weigh the same, and unless you move, the weight remains distributed exactly as it was. I think an understanding of angular momentum would help here.
  14. ... utter nonsense... well...

    try coasting on a uni cycle if all the weight is sitting on the seat alone...

    now try it with the pedals loaded and the weight shared between the seat and the pedals...

    Which is more stable??????????
  15. which has not a single thing to do with the location of the centre of gravity. (and bugger all to do with controlling a motorcycle)

    As with the motorcycles, the way you attach yourself influences the degree of control you have, but does nothing at all with respect to C of G - this can only be changed by moving mass to another place, like when you crouch down or swing your bum off to one side.

    Adjusting the way you grip the mototcycle, and how you distribute your weight between hands, knees, bum and feet does have an effect on how you can handle the bike, but does nothing in relation to centre of gravity.
  16. This is a pretty good approximation to being 100% wrong.

    weight shift has very little influence on steering. [1]

    When riding a bicycle at any reasonable speed, it is possible to achieve some steering effect by shifting weight, but not very much.

    "Pivot steering" is a method of obtaining additional controlled steering input. Although expressed in terms of pressing down with your outside foot, it actually requires you to unconsciously push forward on the inside handlebar at the same time, so it is just the same as counter steering.

    [1] Hanging off the side doesn't make the bike turn much, but it can let you go quickly with lower angles of lean, which can be useful in extreme circumstances.
  17. Mike you are absolutely wrong on the CoG front.

    If I put a point load of 70 kg on the motorcycle seat, then that will have a certain influence on the CoG of the bike/rider system.

    If I distribute the weight around, say 20Kg to each peg, another 20kg on the seat, and 10 on the handle bars, the CoG will be changed. The total weight is the same, but the CoG is not.

    With the 40kg force now acting lower on the frame, the CoG will also be lower - it must - and with it comes all the subsequent improvements in bike handling.

    Contrary to what you say, the uni cycle thought experiment has everything to do with the CoG and about the wider aspects of bike handling.

    By the way, for the non engineers, CoG is defined as "The point in any solid where a single applied force could support it; the point where the mass of the object is equally balanced. The center of gravity is also called the center of mass. "

    Going AFK... ciao for now.
  18. I gather you're not an engineer.

    About the only thing you got right is the definition of C of G, and it is totally at odds with everything else you said.

    A 70 KG weight on the seat is *certainly* different than having a total of 70 KGs attached in various other locations, but that involves actually moving the mass to another location, wheras "pivot steering" involves leaving the mass in the same place, but supporting it differently.

    The CofG of an object depends *entirely* on where the mass is. It matters not whether it is supported from below, above, or from three or seventeen different points. The C of G is fixed until the object in question moves or changes shape. The manner in which a mass is supported will certainly have an effect on its stability, but the C of G can't be moved just by changing the point of attachment.
  19. ... I really must go AFK, but this has been so interesting...

    I am an engineer.

    I'm not talking about pivot steering only commenting on the CoG.

    The way a load is distributed on the bike will impact on the CoG that the bike sees.

    The higher up the bike the point load is, the greater the moment the tyres have to deal with.

    Tell ya what, if you don't believe me, I think Keith Code has something about it in his books...

  20. If you are correct and you may be......when riding hands off, what factor is contributing to steering OTHER than weigh shift?

    Quote from Wikepedia

    "Contrary to what one might expect, above a minimum velocity a bicycle can be ridden "handsfree" with great accuracy. All the steering is then done by shifts of balance, as the front wheel tends to follow the balance."