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(Oz) L & P laws for riders, explain please

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' at netrider.net.au started by robsalvv, Sep 4, 2010.

  1. Could a newbie or someone in the know layout the current learner/probationary licence regime for motorbike riders in their state please.

    That would be really appreciated, particularly the Vic laws.



    If I'm not mistaken, the vic law discussion paper has some flaws in this area...

    Thanks.
     
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  2. Man that's confusing.

    So if I summarise that correctly, you can't get your learners without at least having a drivers licence of some kind for at least a year, and then you need to ride for 12months minimum accompanied. The supervisor must be fully licensed for bikes and can either be in the side car or following at a distance.

    But you can short circuit the process if you do Qride rather than Qsafe? L's are 6months in that case?? Then do you move onto a P1 P2 type probationary period for 12months?

    How do you manage the accompanied rider thing??
    think3. think3.
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. NSW
    Getting your Ls requires the 'Pre-L Course', costs around $80, usually a 2 day half day course (like 9-1 for 2 days). At the end theres a short test to confirm you've learnt the skills.

    Passing that gives you a certificate that lets you go to RTA and sit the multiple choice test similar to cars Ls but with extra bike related questions thrown in.

    Once you pass the multiple choice test you get your shiny L plate, allowing you to ride by yourself.

    After a minimum of 3 months you can do the MOST test, a full day course with test at the end involving slow speed manoeuvring. There is a road test in the middle of the day which is simply pass/fail - if you do anything silly you fail. If you pass both tests you get a cert, go to the RTA and upgrade your license to P1 (red).

    There is a minimum of 12 months on P1, then you go back to the RTA and upgrade to P2. 24 months later you can go back and get your full rider license, allowing you to ride whatever.

    So in summary, 3 months Ls, 12 months P1, 24 months P2.

    3 years, 3 months minimum from Ls to fulls.
     
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  4. Phizog

    I will add this to what you have said

    After a minimum of 3 months you can do the MOST test, a full day course with test at the end involving slow speed manoeuvring. There is a road test in the middle of the day which is simply pass/fail - if you do anything silly you fail. If you pass both tests you get a cert, go to the RTA and upgrade your license to P1 (red).

    There is a minimum of 12 months on P1, then you go back to the RTA and upgrade to P2. 24 months later you can go back and get your full rider license, allowing you to ride whatever.

    Unless you are over 25 and hold an unrestricted vehicle license - this means after a 12 month stint on P plates you can go to the RTA and get your full unrestricted riders licence

    So over 25 with a unrestricted car license means 15 months from L plates to full rider license
     
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  5. shtoopid huh
     
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  6. I can see the logic behind it, I started riding a few months after getting my car red Ps, and it meant that I was learning both riding skills and just road skills in general at the same time, whilst others who started riding at the same time who were a bit older and had been driving longer found riding alot easier because of it.
     
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  7. Thx guys. NSW sounds ok


    How many QLD 's opt for a yr of supv riding? If ur fully lic'd is the req dropped?
     
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  8. nope it isn't dropped.
    you don't NEED a year of supervised riding. i never had even one day supervised outside doing q-ride, the only thing i got pulled up on with my riding was the slow straight line (was either too fast or too slow)
     
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  9. But the QLD rules say that if you're an L plater, you can only ride whilst supervised. How the hell does that practically work? And there's no credit for already holding a full licence?

    I'm getting the sense that though supervised riding is a requirement of QLD and SA's rules, it's not practical or feasible... though I wouldn't mind getting an SA rider's first hand opinion...
     
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  10. i mean you don't need to ever ride during your learners period. yeah you need supervision, you need to find someone to ride with you. shite i know (the reason i never rode during my learner period - but i grew up on chookers so i wasn't new to bikes)
    nope, full license for car means precisely SFA.
    when i did q-ride the instructor was saying they're trying to get the gubmint to reassess the supervision issue to come into line with other states (since we have LAMS now)
     
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  11. QLD

    Having just gotten the restricted licence in Queensland, I can comment. The 'supervised while on L's' thing has been part of the landscape since, like, forever. So much so I can't understand how someone can be on their Ls on the road without a supervisor around.

    A 'learner rider' has to be supervised on the open road by an open motorcycle licence holder howsoever long it takes to advance to having an RE licence. That period could be a day or it could be years. The rider needs to be supervised - until recently that could be as a pillion or sidecar (!).

    You need to recall that to qualify as a learner you only need to answer 4/5 multi-choice questions right at the local department of transport (and the questions and answers are all on the DoT website).

    In practice this supervision requirement meant that I needed to line up mates to be within 400m of me every time I went for a ride. That got old really quickly since the closest one was 30 minutes away.

    In Queensland:

    L's

    --> have car licence for 1 year and answer 4/5 questions
    --> Can then ride LAMS anywhere under supervision of open licence holder
    --> Must have L plate/vest.
    --> 0% alcohol, no pillion etc. No speed restrictions different to the posted speed limit.

    Good if you have willing and helpful mates within coo-ee who can take you out regularly to do carpark runs and general road practice. The idea is to get you sufficiently competent to go pass your QRide. Many people get their learners on the Friday, do the course over the weekend, and then have a restricted licence by Monday.

    Restricted Licence

    --> Two pathways:

    (1) QRide: Minimum 1 day competency testing and sign off to say you are competent. Many courses are two days in practice. Competency includes being taken onto the open road with a group under a leader (with HART we went out for 3 hours, so it's intense).

    (2) QSafe: Be on L's (no logbook requirement so may never have been on a bike) for at least six months then book in to do test (30-40 mins) at Department of Transport. Test is similar to QRide but are set tasks that must be done then and there (competency demonstrated many times vs do it once for the test).

    If signed as competent, present certificate for endorsement of licence. You can then ride a LAMS bike anywhere. May need a P Plate if still on Ps with car licence; if not, then no P plate required.

    In practice it's tough to do QSafe as you have to bring your own bike; this means legally a mate needs to ride it to one of the few centres that do motorcycle testing, or needs to supervise you there. My nearest centres were 30 kilometres away and only open weekdays (so mates would need to take day off work yada yada).

    They really want you to do QRide...

    0% blood alcohol for first 12 months of restrictions. No pillion for 12 months. No speed restrictions different to the posted speed limit. After 12 months you have an open restricted licence (it is Queensland) - you don't automatically go to the non-LAMS bikes after 12 months. You can drink if you wish, pillion, and you can actually supervise learners on a LAMS bike (but not a learner on a non-LAMS bike - see below).

    Unrestricted Licence

    --> Two pathways again

    QRide - competency testing. Exactly the same as for the restricted licence but on a bigger bike. 1 day, road test, etc.

    QSafe - test only. Again same as for restricted, with same issues and benefits.

    Oddly, it seems you need to have an L plate to ride these bigger bikes and be supervised again by someone with an unrestricted licence. And again 0% blood alcohol, no pillion etc whilst on these bigger bikes for 12 months. No speed restrictions different to the posted speed limit.

    This requirement to do a test to go to unrestricted is a new thing. Always used to be automatic endorsement after 12 months.

    I think that's it...

    Thanks: PossumBob.
     
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  12. also for NSW if you live in an undeclaired area and are not with a reasonable range of a declaired area. (declaired area meaning the rta does the pre learner and pre provitional courses).
    Then you are not required to do the pre learner or pre provitional riding courses, so to get your L's you just go in and sit for the test, and for the P's just do a riding test.
     
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  13. I'm yet to find anything (either in the Riders Handbook or on sa.gov.au) that states a learner rider in SA must be supervised.
     
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  14. VIC.
    It may have changed slightly.. but the process was as follows for me.
    (Sat for my Ls about 4 years ago.)
    To get your Ls for a bike you need to either have your Ls for a car or sit a road rules type written test in addition to a Motorbike related written test and a practical assessment after completing some pretty basic training.
    I did a 1 day course (started at about 9am, stopped for lunch, did another 1-2 hours before the assessment. Having passed the practical test we then did about a 30 minute lesson on what was in the written test before sitting it.
    License was given at the end of the day.
    From memory it was just under $300 for the course incl. the license.
    There were more expensive options for the Ls training/test that ran over a couple of days and it was cheaper to do the test on a scooter (about $50-$100 cheaper) than on a bike.
    I did my Ls on a scooter and I would have to say that anyone who can ride a pushy could pass the Ls test without any trouble, at least where I did it..

    My Ls were due to expire, and having no road experience as I hadn't picked up a bike in the 18 months since getting my Ls.. It was either let my Ls lapse and re-sit for them when I actually got a bike or try and get my Ps...
    From memory it is a minimum of 3 months before on Ls before you can sit for your Ps, (Someone else might be able to clarify this)
    Ps was another 1 day course including a practical test, and sitting a 'hazard perception' test at VIC roads.
    I did the practical test again on a scooter and again had no trouble passing it even having no road time and not having been on a scooter (or even a push bike) in the intervening 18 months... Cost was again sub $300 from memory..

    I know that I took the cheapest option for getting my licenses and that a lot of the other courses from what I've heard are a lot more comprehensive than the one I did.

    Not having a full license made no difference for the Ls period. But while I was on my Ps they brought in the two phase P (red > green) system. Because I already had my Ps by the cut off point I was on Green Ps the whole way through. The main difference for car license vs no car license is that I have to display P plates for 3 years (same as for a P-plate car licence).
    The Red P-plate (first 12 months on Ps) has the no-pillion restriction and LAMS restriction, in addition to the BAC of 00 and 5 demerit points in 12 months which applies to both red and green Ps.

    From memory (don't quote me here) someone with a full car license has the same process but they don't have to display Ps after 12 months.. I am not sure though if the BAC and demerit point conditions apply after that 12 months or if they move to a full license or not.. Perhaps someone else can clarify this..

    All in all the process for getting a bike license was quite affordable and very easy.. Probably too easy.

    I originally got a bike license as the supervised hours and requirements to get a car licence was too expensive and almost impossible as no one I know well enough to bludge driving lessons off drives/owns a car... (100 hours or whatever it is now of supervised hours is a lot to ask of a friend, and even paying if beer and skittles would be pricey)
    Inner city melb cars are a fairly optional so most people I know don't bother...

    My 2 cents on the bike licensing is that the cost should not be prohibitive but making the Ls test cover more things would make a lot of sense as would making the Ps test/course cover the equivalent of an 'advanced rider training' type course rather then just a teach the test process which is what the ones I attended were...
    While learning how to play in traffic on a bike is pretty hairy, I think it isn't to blame for the supposed increase in injuries or fatalities, I know that because I had no road experience when I first started riding that I avoided high traffic roads and anything above 60km/h until I felt confident actually riding the bike as playing in traffic was terrifying. Had I known how to drive I probably wouldn't have been as cautious as basic noob riding isn't that hard, it doesn't take long to get the confidence to ride the bike even though in reality as a learner you don't have a lot of survival skills.. IMHO it is likely over confidence on the part of sunday sunny day riders with limited bike experience (plenty of road/car experience) that are the likely responsible for any blip in Learner/p-plater statistics. I also think eople who get a bike licence with no car license are more likely to be riding everyday even if it is just as a primary form of transport to and from work etc, it isn't just the weekend toy that get's pulled out once a month for a sunday jaunt.
    The logistics of finding a someone for supervised riding is also going to make it extremely hard for people such as my self who didn't know anyone who rode to get their license and I cannot really see the benefit.. Additional survival skills type training that actually teaches new riders how to potentially save their skin makes a lot of sense, as does making the Ps test actually hard enough that it requires people to be able to actually ride...
     
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  15. Hmm from what i can gather so far, For WA were much the similar to QLD.

    If you have your full drivers lic, you sit the test for Ls. You get supervised riding (ride with a licensed friend/family/etc) for however long you need to do the practical test. There is no required training or other BS. You just go do it, supervised.

    Once you have passed your practical test, thats it your R-E (Read - LAMS ish. 250CC no power restriction.) Which means you can ride your 250CC without any supervision and there is no alcohol restriction either. But you cannot ride a more powerful bike... like a 400 or 900 etc. BUT from what i can gather you CAN ride a 250 Ninja with Turbo!!!

    Also i believe there isnt a restriction to wether you can ride on motorways/freeways and there is no time restriction like there is on a cars P plates, If you have your car lic you are a full licensed rider.
     
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  16. Thanks for that Grimmelkin - really appreciate it! That license process for Vic motorcycles is not explained in the rider handbook or on Vicroad website. It's crazy. :?

    I know that there is some difference if you're fully licenced, so I'd appreciate someone clearing that aspect up. I believe that currently you would have a much shorter path to full licence.

    Anyway. the experience you describe is exactly the issue the new GLS is trying to deal with. The new proposals would see you not getting your licence... and by your own words, despite your reason for getting your L's, you didn't need it since you didn't get any road time... but I guess you're riding now and enjoying the experience no doubt.

    Your L's path though suggests that you were a statistical time bomb - even though you made it - Kudos to you. You must have an aptitude for riding. Many others haven't the aptitude and don't make it through the requirements without any road time and also end up as a crash statistic.


    On a direct rider to rider POV, I hope you're getting out of the city. It seems your riding type is mostly city commuting which means there might be lots of important bike handling skills that you're not developing whilst your traffic skills are probably off the chart. There's a good chance you will be fairly prone to SR's out on the open road/twisties.

    The stats show peaks in crashes on weekends and during weekday afternoons - but it's not all about novice riders.

    Most crashes involve riders apparently getting involved in a situation above their skill level (e.g. hot for a corner) and/or being involved in a collision with another vehicle - the majority of which are the other vehicles fault.

    About 20% of all motorcycle fatalities are noob (i.e. not fully licenced) riders. The recent spike in fatalities are mostly older riders - whether they are noob riders is unclear, but it doesn't seem so.

    Anyway, thanks for dropping into the thread.

    Given your experience, you may want to read the new licensing proposal discussion paper located at: http://www.arrivealive.vic.gov.au/i..._f/graduated_licensing_for_motorcyclists.html

    ...some of the proposals include tougher training, supervised riding time, gear restrictions, longer periods on L's and P's, no right to ride manual bikes if you gain an auto(scooter) licence and riding curfews for L's and P1's.
     
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  17. Celtic, thanks for the post. What does the supervised riding actually mean? Does a licensed rider sit pillion on your bike? Are you followed? Must you only ride on L's while supervised? Are there minimum hours required? Is it just a minimum time period that must be complied with? Could you attempt your P's without any L plate riding at all?



    I'm pretty sure proper power to weight LAMS will come your way mate.

    How long since you got your license mate?
     
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  18. Don't know about WA but supervised riding in Queensland means you must be accompanied - I assume on another bike but perhaps could be a car - by an open licence holder at all times whilst you are on your L's.

    I understand this to mean no more than 400m apart (either supervisor leading or following) but I've got no facts to back that up other than my vague recollection.

    No minimum hours or minimum time period. Technically you will have done some L supervised riding to get your REstricted licence as it's part of the QRide/QSafe, but there' s no logbook requirement to get a certain number of hours up before that.

    Supervisor can't be pillion but I think they may actually be OK to be in a sidecar. These Queenslanders are crazy.
     
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  19. yep supervisor can either be on another bike, in a car (i think they were reassessing sidecars, but i could be wrong). doesn't matter what teh supervisor is in/on so long as they have a bike license (they never tell you this but the licensed supervisor can be a p-plater so long as they've had their p's for a full year)
     
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