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Occupy wall street

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by killbot88, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. So what are the thoughts on the occupy wall street movement in America? The beginning-of-the-end of unregulated capitalism in America, or just another Leftist movement?

    I think it is possible it is the beginning of a "revolution" of sorts. there are parallels between the current situation in America, and many revolutions in the past

    The growing demarcation of the rich and poor is helping foster a greater "them and us" mentallity. The unemployed lower classes are filling up with the educated and recently retrenched middle class, who have crushing debts from Uni and no job prospects. The government are forcing them to wear the cost of the risk the banks took, while those who really should, escape responsibility and maintain their high standard of living. They even have what every good revolution needs... A slogan to unite under.
  2. Dont kid yourself. The only reason australia keeps its head above water is because of mining. Once thats gone, y'all ****ed. But I am guessing none of us here will see it, we will be long gone.

    From what I have read, most of the protesters are deadbeat socialists so who really gives a ****. IF they controlled the world we would all be living like zimbabwe. Yay to that. Then again, with the greens in power in the senate maybe we are headed that way anyway. Bring on 21st century communism.
  3. Please explain, I know mining makes a lot of money for some people, but it's keeping Australia afloat?
  4. Mining regulated banks around bad debt?

  5. How else does this country make money?

    We dig it up, ship it out and then buy it back value added.
  6. Our economy is very much Based on services.

    I for one invite communism.
  7. wahhh wahhh wahhh they have money and i dont have as much so i'm going to make a scene so we all get his money even though we don't work as hard. down with the system, i <3 the greens, no more coal fired power stations, we want jobs, i need a shower because i smell like piss and weed, screw the man, obama is a cvnt, bob brown is the breast. i love lamp. lets sit around in tents and do nothing while we wait for our centrelink cheques.

  8. Unfortunately It's not that simple...
  9. Perhaps if the 99% had the work ethic of a junior investment banker/marketer/accountant/lawyer/med intern/ etc they would not be in so much financial hardship, the opportunities exist for everyone willing to work hard.

    and anyway, its their fault for borrowing huge amounts of money for degrees that are literally worthless. What? your ****ing surprised that nobody wants to give you a job with your English Lit Major??

    For perspective i work 40 hours a week at an accounting firm while taking night classes at uni.

    The 99% in this country are just lazy failures.

    On an unrelated note, i loved the irony of everyone not being able to protest in martin place come monday thanks to our low unemployment.
  10. We in this country have very little to complain about. Hence why no protesting.

    America... that's a different story. How can you stand and watch someone buy a hundred million dollars worth of yacht, when another man hasnt even got a meal to look forward to? How can investment banks make millions on gambling on other peoples loans which they shouldn't have been given anyway?

    Admittedly, I'm a socialist.
  11. They don't really know what they want.

    There's talk that the movement in the states will become the Tea Party of the left, with the Democrats able to harness their enthusiasm to garner grass-roots support. But nah, that ain't gonna happen.

    The whole thing seems so confused... and they're really losing the public image battle. Especially that whole human megaphone thing they're playing at. Hard to see without laughing, unless you're in their very narrow target market.
  12. For more perspective i do an overpriced eliteist uni course set up for people that have rich mummy and daddy pay for it so they dont have to work while i have to spend the hours i SHOULD be studying working a shit job i wish i didnt have to do and only do because it actually fits around my study, just so i can eat.
    I do this course because what im trying to get into is a long term dream that is being compromised by the fact that i have to work for a living, but have the options of 2 unis that offer this course, both of which charge an arm and a leg for it and im going to eventually have to pay off.
    The only lazy failures in this country are these goddamn dolebludgers that think the indians are taking all their jobs, the rest of us still have to work our arses off and dont need knobheads like you trying to tell us we should be working like ****ing greedy investment bankers who have absolutely no business telling anyone how to work due to their inherant lack of social morals and inflated self importance.
    Do i get paid enough for what i do? Yeah probably, it puts food on the table and petrol in my tank. I just wish i could be left the **** alone to either study or work.
  13. I can relate. Amen.
  14. Yup. Relevance to Australia? Low. Relevance to the USA? Pretty high.

    In the USA, the government has borrowed thousands of billions of dollars to do things like prop up car manufacturers who collapsed in large part because of their own incompetence and give money to banks which had lost all their own by doing increasingly stupid shit with it.

    What can the general populace themselves getting out of all this expenditure? Increasing unemployment, houses suddenly becoming worth way less than their loans, a public education system that is still shit... and then they see bonuses being given to many of the executives who caused the current situation.

    This is how many of the people over there are feeling/seeing things. I won't go saying that they're definitely correct (though I clearly lean toward agreeing with them), but where they're coming from is definitely understandable and not just the usual suspects.

    Its not just the lazy and the jealous, its also the people who've been trying and trying and getting nowhere, who are still only getting by (not getting rich in the land of opportunity), who see the people who already have stuff still profiting from the situation.

    Hopefully I've been communicated that well enough.

    EDIT: For comparison, in Australia it can be a struggle to get through uni, but at least you can see and expect a payoff at the end. When you have people getting qualifications in practical, useful things (e.g. engineering rather than arts) and still having little to no chance of getting a job -or even reducing their chances, in the case of dead end ones- its pretty unhappy-making. It may still be possible for them to get a job in their desired field, but the average level of self-selling skill probably isn't enough any more.
  15. One of the main points of stability in capitalism, is a middle class with sufficient expendable income to keep them subdued, but enough debt to keep them dependant. The lower class is controlled with enough opportunitys to believe that they may one day become part of the middle class.

    America's structure relied heavily on an almost religous belief of these principals. Those who work hard will be rewarded and the "American dream" of everyone having the opportunity to take part in the capitalist system. That system has been shown to be corrupted to the people. Bad ideas and systems are not being punished. The opposite is occuring. People who made good financial choices are now forced into debt to protect the way of life of those who "broke" the system. And the question is being asked "Why are none of them being punished?"

    They want an end to the influence of the private sector on politics. The American ecconomy has been destroyed to protect the "higher ups" at the expense of the workers. The general population has essentually been sold into bondage to cover the private company's debt, and no one who is responsible is being held accountable. Quite the opposite actually, they are continuing to do what they did before and being rewarded for it.

    It's more, how can you watch a company buy hundred million dollar yacht and when the creditors come around, turn the the workers and say "you will need to take a pay cut, I don't want that yacht to eat up my new house fund"
    Remember, you can be fired in America for unionizing. You are allowed to "agree" away conditions. Pensions are not guaranteed by the government. If your boss runs the company into the ground, in some instances he can take your pension with it. If you quit a job that has hospital cover, you are one accident away from eveything gone. Land of the free? Sounds like land of the subdugated. We control the capital, so we are the ruling class. Toil away. You question anything, you mention rights or unions, you don't accept what I tell you you will be paid, You attempt to educate yourself or become a threat to our profits, we will take everything.
  16. well then show me why i should give any attention to these protesters in Australia, using Australian examples.

    convert me bro.
  17. The reason the whole thing seems confused to you who wonder what this burgeoning movement is all about, is that you’re looking at it through the wrong frame of concepts. To say that “they’re losing the public image battle” is to read it in the language of marketing, advertising and ultimately capitalism. So, long as you approach the phenomenon with these expectations, you’re bound to misunderstand it. The unified and coherent message to which marketing habituates you is a product of singular intent, made possible because capitalist enterprises are hierarchically organised and essentially undemocratic in form.

    What you have in the Occupy Wall Street Movement is a social movement, not (yet) a political movement, the difference being that they are not (yet) making a call to take control of society’s institutions, but only to re-orientate the trajectory along with society is travelling. It is essentially democratic in form, and its relative incoherence is a result of the fact that is democratic and represents a multitude of interests. (Which doesn’t at all mean it doesn’t have something worth saying.)

    From what I understand the human megaphone thing is because the police have refused permits for amplifying equipment, and passing the message on through the crowd is simply a practical way of making speakers heard by the sheer number of people assembled. Is it the image of mass co-operation that irks you?

    The movement may yet become radicalised into a properly political form, but to answers killbot’s original question in the OP, I don’t yet see it becoming a revolutionary movement yet. But given that the world is presently looking into the abyss of another Great Depression, and one likely to be more severe than 1929, this may still happen. If it does, however, it’s likely to need another 10 or 15 years for a revived mass movement to occur, if it happens at all. It’s taken three years since the markets turned in 2008 for things to make it this far. You can’t overturn the crushing weight of inherited social self-understanding overnight.

    So far, if Greece defaults, if could trigger Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy to go the same route. The austerity measures imposed by the EU on Greece don’t make sense as a rescue plan, and never did. The only thing that will work is a massive write-off of debt. They are only just beginning to realise this, even though its goes against all the “wisdom” coming out of Chicago since the 70s. If Greece goes, Europe goes, the US goes, and China loses its markets. The shock will be felt here, and the mining industry won’t (can’t) save us.

    This is an interconnected world, and what appears to be a low relevance to cushy-arsed ostraches in Australia, whose only purchase on the question is the pathetically self-centred concern that their degree might not land them the job they want) is likely to prove deceptive. Yes, Australia’s wealth is in primary industry, but to say it is that-and-that-only is to forget how a goodly portion of this wealth is general wealth because of the ways it has been distributed. People can make the mistake that class politics is irrelevant to their lives, only because they are riding on the rewards of working class movements that have had to struggle for an end to child labour, the institution of a 40 hour week, and for a minimum wage as a ‘living wage’ rather than a starvation wage. Small scale capitalism, which is capitalism nonetheless, has benefited from this too, because it help generate and maintain a domestic market for its goods.

    The Tories of 200 years ago (Southey, Coleridge, Arnold, Carlyle) were aghast at the social irresponsibility of the acolytes of “Political Economy”, and would be just as aghast at today’s neo-liberal orthodoxy. With each new generation the norms of the preceding generations are forgotten, and they realise not how they have been swindled. (Does an xbox and a comfortable chair, and the ability masturbate in front of video screens any time of the day or night really make up for not having any control over your pitiful existence?)

    The trouble with half you mob is that you look at your TV documentaries, and think that socialism = Stalinism, uncomprehending of how 9 years of continuous war (WWI + the Russian Civil War) and the necessary bureaucratisation, during the final 5, of the Bolshevik party – which until 1917 had been democratic in word and deed (often in resistance to Lenin) – twisted the party beyond all recognition, and how a leftist reaction against Stalinism was both immediate and immediately suppressed, both within and outside the Party.

    The image of socialism that lies under your bed and keeps you up at night is a Spectre that doesn’t exist. Communitarianism in any form (be it anarchism, socialism, communism, or your local fucking bowles club) is not the “Road to Serfdom” which Hayek, the prophet of the Thatcherites and Chicago boys, described. Hayek never came to understand how the shrewd manoeuvring of Anton Drexler (Hitler’s mentor, and founder of that oxymoron “national socialism”) would live on, after the war, and subtly dictate the form of his own delusion right up to his death seven decades later.

    Ultimately the question that has to be faced is as stark as it is simple: Why do you claim to desire democracy in your parliaments and yet deny it in your workplace? What do you have against workers' self-management apart from a share portfolio that allows you cream off a profit from other people’s labour? And you accuse the poor bastards on the dole of being sponges!
  18. International education, tourism, selling property to overseas buyers..

    I work for a telco in Sydney. I don't think I see any benefit from the mining boom in my day to day life. I see plenty of negatives from International education and selling property to overseas buyers though.
  19. Forgive me for my firmly entrenched vision of capitalism - I've been well trained living in a society dominated by marketing, advertising and capitalism for the last 26 years. :p I don't think it's wrong to judge the sit-in by those standards as they're the ones that will ultimately dominate the effectiveness of that movement, hell, any political/social movement - in this day in age.

    You're right about the human megaphone thing - circumventing the ban on megaphones etc. (Although there's footage of people using megaphones and doing it anyway?) The thing that bothers me is in other cities, like Melbourne and Sydney, megaphones aren't broken and they use that stupid technique anyway. It's a 'brand' thing. And it shits me. And it doesn't look like mass cooperation or solidarity but sheepish, blind behaviour.

    But what bothers me the most about the whole thing is that there is a legitimate message underneath the protests. (At least in America) But this shotgun approach at every single barrow they have to push will get them nowhere and the whole movement will end up fizzling out. Or ending with tear gas and mounted police swinging batons. Either or.

    But in the end I think it'll be a short-lived movement. Betcha a fiver.