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[NSW] HWP question

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by blackjacket, Sep 11, 2009.

  1. Hey all,

    just got stung last night, got a question.

    I didn't see any radars setup or anything, they seemed to know what speed I was doing based on when I passed in front of them at an intersection, and later when they were apparently directly behind me.

    So is it true they have a system which measures your speed without having to target you specifically? I didn't think to ask for the readout, is that still doable these days?

  2. Depends where the reading was taken, I'd probably suggest it was while they were behind you- your change of speed would be too slow to accurately measure with a hand-held (dropping to 0km/h when directly in front of the car). Depends if they measured via speedometer or speedometer+vehicle radar. Any clarification on the ticket? May have to write to get the details of their measurement. (Finally understand this whole radar thing with particle dynamics, interesting stuff)
  3. Some cars have a mobile radar fitted to them, in SA. Also, ye olde read out the speedo while calculating time over distance. Pretty simple really, stopwatch between two points of measurable distance, or, drive the car at a fixed speed and record the each car arrives at two points.

    I believe that a policemans observation of speed is the primary evidence anyway, with devices used to support it. Even if you rule out the device, it's still your word vs theirs? Unsure.
  4. I was under the impression HWP didnt need measuring devices to be able to book for speeding, that legally they can judge by sight.
  5. I got pulled over once under similar circumstances.

    The guy was asking me how fast I was going, reckons he 'saw me speeding' while he was coming up to the red light interesecting.

    I maintained I was doing the limit, and didn't give in to his goading "You don't think you might possibly have been going a bit faster?"

    "No. Absolutely not."

    I didn't get a ticket.
  6. HWP or general on-road copper?
  7. I got done at the Light Horse interchange on the M4 (heading away from Sydney) :shock: Didn't see any cops, bikes or anything else... but still got a nice letter in the post!! :roll:
  8. Curious too. I've gotten out of 3 so far with regular cops in Vic, there's a road nearby that used to be 80 but is now 60 since they upgraded it ( :? ). Never had one follow me, always coming out of intersecting streets or sitting on the opposite side of the road and going 70 each time. All of them were pissed I didn't admit to speaking and all got the breathalyser out and gave the car (pre-bike) a once-over before begrudgingly letting me go :LOL:
  9. My uncle was HWP (VIC) for 18 yrs and got out about 18 months ago. So unless things have changed this is what he always told me.

    HWP can in court deem that a vehicle was speeding purely from their judgment as a SME due to the fact that they look at cars and their speeds all day on the job and build an uncanny knack to judging speeds. A general on road cop (station cop) can't as they are not deemed to have enough exposure such as a HWP officer.

    Point to note they use chopper speed ticketing on the Hume south of Wangaratta about twice a year (due to the cost). These tickets are all issued by speed over distance method and the copper on the HWY that pulls you up is actually giving you the ticket on behalf of the measuring copper in the chopper.
  10. Cheers, I figured that was the case since they definitely wanted me to leave there with a ticket, but I still didn't. My town doesn't have a cop shop so the closest towns cops have to do routine patrols - I reckon they try to make it worthwhile and book someone.

    Probably the most pissed off one was when I overtook a truck (who cut me off then only did 35 in the 60 zone - till I went to overtake). So I passed a cop stationery on the side of the road doing about 70 on the wrong side of the road, to pass the truck that sped up on me :mad: . Why was he pissed though? He got stuck behind the truck too! :LOL: . He caught up with me 3 KM down the road, so a few minutes later.
    Cop: "Trucks not fast enough for you mate?"
    Me: "Well, pulled out in front of me without indicating, then didn't break 40, so I waited for broken lines and overtook when it was safe at the speed limit" < Said literally that sentence
    Cop: "Sure you weren't speeding? Even a little?"
    Me: "I didn't go above 60, no"
    Cop: *sighs and goes to get breathalyser - despite it being 9 30 am and me in my work uniform*
    Needless to say, no fines :LOL:
  11. What state are you in?

    If in NSW I would guess you got a new ticket for exceed speed not more than 10km/h?

    Does it say "Radar/Lidar detected" on the TIN? (NSW) if other state I don't know the layout.

    I know a little bit about these things, and may be able to offer some advice if you want to contest the TIN, but would need more detailed particulars.
  12. off-topic, but welcome back Tweet :grin:

    -the artist formerly known as Mr M4 Speedracer
  13. Didn't know they have the internetz up there tweet, good to see you about :grin:
  14. General filth.

  15. Thanks gents :)

    Surprisingly Jared, they have the interwebs way out here!
  16. I got a 'Class A motor vehicle exceed speed limit over 30km/h'. They wrote on the ticket 95/50.

    To be honest I wasn't looking at the speedo, I was two streets away from home.

    So what I'm getting is that theres no point contesting a HWP ticket?

    Edit: before people start bitching, no I'm not looking for sympathy. Yes, I was probably going a bit fast, but I'm just trying to suss out my options. If it was a normal radar gun, I wouldn't bother.
  17. If it was a Hwy car, they have silver eagle II radar fitted to the vehicle, and also have LIDAR in the boot or on the back seat.

    If they followed you for more than a couple of seconds, or you approached the rear of their car from a couple of hundred metres away (where the radar is pointed rearwards) they most likely detected your speed using the vehicle mounted radar, and in every likleyhood, it was captured on DVR if they had the recorder running full-time (which most will do) and in any event, once the vehicle warning system is activated, the recorder will automatically start anyway.

    With radar/Lidar detected offences, and the introduction of in car DVR for Hwy cars a couple of years back, speeding offences became very difficult to challenge. I would need you to spend a bit of time and spell out EXACTLY what transpired including everything you said (it will certainly have been recorded by Police on their pocket recorder) at the time if you want a better idea of what defence you might have.

    On the basis of what you have already said happened, it is assumed you have been dtected by Radar or a check speed from the vehicle digital speedometer while they followed you and recorded on DVR. In that case, it will be very difficult to get off the hook, you only real hope is if the radar or vehicle speedometer is out of certification.
  18. Ok thanks for the info Tweet!

    Here's what happened: Was heading west on Parramatta Rd with freshly bought Quarter Pounder nice and warm inside my jacket. They said I was doing 80 when I passed in front of them at Shaftesbury Road. Entirely possible (I was watching my speed today and EVERYBODY was doing 80... at 60 I was getting overtaken left, right, centre.)

    So I come to Burwood Road intersection, indicate, turn left. It's a slight down slope, then a long straight section to the lights in front of Westfields. It's deserted at midnight on thursday. I gave it a good bit of gas and took off after the turn, then got off the gas and coasted into stop at the lights.

    AFAIK, I didn't notice any cop car in my mirrors just before the turn onto Burwood road, and in any case it's about 5 seconds past Shaftesbury road.

    For them to have got me on radar, they would have had to gun it down Parramatta Rd, then veer into Burwood Road and start logging my speed. There is a good 10-20 seconds if they were immediately behind me at the turn.

    I was actually waiting a few seconds at the lights before they came charging up behind me lights and all. Strikes me as kinda suss... Indicate left and pull over after doing a short left turn. I didn't say anything besides "I was hungry" after I put my (now cooling) quarter pounder on the seat. They asked me what 95 minus 50 was and I said 45. At no time did i even allude to what speed I was doing. Standard excuse is "I wasn't watching my speedo" which was true.

    Hopefully that's a bit of entertainment for the rest of yous :p

    Edit: Another question, if I go to court and lose, will they raise the penalty? I have a similar offence from last year.
  19. It is possible that they used Lidar out the window of their car as you were either approaching or just passed Shaftsbury Rd, but that intersection with the high fence of the bus depot would make it difficult as you were approaching. They will often park in places perpendicular to your direction of travel, and just point the Lidar out the window.

    I am almost certain they would have asked you "How fast were you going" or "Do you know how fast you were going" or words to that effect?

    Did you answer, "I wasn't watching my speedo"??

    I am uncertain from your previous post if that was your answer to the usual leading question asked when a motorist is stopped for speeding.

    The leading question put to the driver/rider is so that they will almost certainly incrimininate themselves with the answer, or at least leave themselves with no defence to run if they elect to go to court.

    Most motorists when asked how fast they were going, especially if they know they were speeding, will respond with "I don't know" or "I wasn't watching" which means that if Police allege you were speeding, you can hardly deny it if you openly state you have no idea how fast you were going, or weren't watching the speedo, and the Police will adduce that as evidence in the event of going to hearing and it will almost certainly be your downfall.

    When stopped by Police, the best thing you can say is NOTHING!
    When you get the leading question, respond with a question of your own, such as "How fast do you say I was traveling Constable?"

    You then put the ball into their court to determine the speed, and you haven't given them the opportunity to say you were doing whatever speed they like by answering "I don't know" etc.

    You are never under any obligation to answer questions pertaining to traffic matters when stopped by Police, and you should exercise your right to say nothing. Usually it will mean they get annoyed with you, and will give you a TIN anyway, but at least they may think that they are going to have to prove the offence and they may think twice if they have any doubt as to your guilt and you may just get away without a TIN .

    By trying to seem co-operative, and answering questions or making any sort of admission, you are not likely to walk away without a ticket anyway if you have been stopped by a Hwy car. All you will be doing by talking is eroding any chance you had to get off, and it will make proving the offence so much easier for police.

    If you choose to take the matter to court and police are successful, then it is very probable that the magistrate will fine you an amount greater than what is on the TIN. That is because if proven guilty, it is seen as a waste of the court time and police time to hear the matter and prepare the brief etc. Usuallly for an offence not more than 45km/h over, there may be a fair increase in the fine, and you may also get an increased suspension period.

    Hardly seems fair, but without any deterent, there would be people trying their luck in the court system rather than paying fines even though they are as guilty as Ned Kelly.

    You can always elect to have the matter heard, and then request the brief of evidence from police once you have been to the first mention and entered the plea of not guilty. If after seeing the brief the evidence against you is compelling, you can plead guilty before the hearing date, and if done at the first opportunity you may not suffer an increased penalty. This option would only be viable if you knew with some certainty that police will have difficulty proving elements of the offence. If they got you fair and square or they no doubt have sound evidence, then sucking it up is your best option.
  20. This happened to a guy I work with.
    Got done by a snap reading from a radar gun with out-of-date calibration, on a section of road it was impossible for him to have measured any vehicle at that speed for the minimum time required for an accurate reading.

    Had the officer on the witness stand, he was screwed by his own testimony, they were nailing him: ...so the judge called for a 2 week break so the cops could get their act together.

    The pricks then new what the defence angle was. Went and moved where they claimed the incident took place up the road to a longer straighter section, and produced a new calibration certificate for the Radar saying "Oh woops, here's the right one."

    In the end, the judge dismissed the case.

    ... but the RTA still applied the points anyway, disregarding the judgement and suspended his license!

    $7,000 + time off work to avoid a listing on your driving record, but still get your license suspended.

    When my mate tells this story it ends like this:
    "My driving record isn't the best. But I've always copped it sweet.
    I only fought this because I was innocent, and when I managed to finally prove it, the RTA didn't give a stuff what the outcome was anyway.
    After that: f*** 'em. I drove around unlicensed for 6 months, with all the court papers in my jacket ready to give a bloody huge serve to any cop that pulled me over."