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neutral to gear crunching

Discussion in 'Technical and Troubleshooting Torque' started by Tomcatalex, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. when im standing I put clutch in change from neutral to first and go, then ride 1st to second to 3rd etc
    Some times I ride from 1st and try to change to second and get neutral instead, i figure ive made a mistake, so as im still rolling I try to put it into 2nd, but the thing doesnt want to go in, even with clutch all the way in, it just crunches, and it does the same from nural to first while rolling. so i have to come to a stop and then it goes in to first with no problems

    Sometimes I also notice that I try to put it into first while standing and it doesnt want to go into gear it stays in nutral, i have to kick down 2 or 3 times to get it into 1st

    whats the problem, is it mechanical or is it an adjustment of gear lever or clutch, need help
  2. Tom,

    Given this post and the others you have posted I'd say your bike needs a serious service.

    this could be gear linkages, clutch adjust, clutch wear, or more seriously the gear selector drum or even the dog teeth.

    If the bike were mine, I'd be taking it off the road and giving it a thorough going over.

    I hope you don't take offence, but I think you might be better off taking to to a mechanic along with a list of problems.

    Once the bike is running well, then you can use it to learn a bit about bike maintenance. The impression I'm getting is the bike is too far gone for your current skill level.
  3. come on man, all other problems have been fixed, they were small minor things, the starting problem was helped by nick, just had to start without using throttle, the swingarm is fine, I pulled it off and slightly bent it back into shape, only needed 5mm to get it right. The noise in the engine was helped by putting 20w50 oil, the flat spot was fixed by someone recomending I change the slide holders, only cost $5.40 each, problem fixed

    so all up fixed all my old problems for 40 odd bucks

    Mechanic would have charged at least $400 if he was a mate

    so im asking do you think the clutch needs adjustment? which i will attempt later using my manual, thank you
  4. yes, if it's a cable operated clutch, then try adjusting it. also check the external gear shift linkages for excessive free play.
  5. Thanx mate will try this

  6. give it a real good kick into second. the across' will often find neutral between 1st and 2nd if u pussy foot around with the gear lever.

    maybe try adjusting it down a bit, i did this with mine and it almost eliminated finding neutral.

    be positive with gear changes, if u just tap it u may well be fcuking ur dogs.....ur not the type of guy who likes to fcuk dogs are you.

    btw fastest 400 posts since philoz and vcm....
  7. I wont be a pussy or fcuk dogs

    will still do the clutch adjustment, as per picture above

    and thanx for fastest 400

    thought you were talking about ZXR400 = fastest 400 in a straight line
  8. If anything, that is possibly why the shifting is not good at the moment.

    Motorcycle gear selection mechanisms, being sequential, use a highly geared ratchet, pawl and selector drom with shift forks system to convert small up and down movement into larger rotary movement of the drum.

    When you use unneccesary force any part of this can be damaged, with the result that the shift drum does not rotate smoothly to allow the forks to move the sliding shafts which engage each gear.

    To test the clutch - engage any gear and see:

    1) How far you need to pull the clutch lever "in" before you can move the bike in gear (movement will tend to be hard because a multiplate clutch as on a motorbike has a lot of internal friction compared to a car type clutch.) You can pull the bike backwards for thgis test.

    2) How much "slack" is at the ball end of the lever - should be about 10mm - before you feel the cable take up.

    If the clutch frees nicely (try it when the oil is hot AS well) any problem will be related to technique.

    3) Bike trannies can only be effectively shifted while on the move, or stopped with the engine not running.

    4) If a shift does not work properly, always let the clutch out again (assuming the engine is running and the bike is moving especially) before trying again. You can not always rely on the sliding shafts to move and allow the dogs to engage the next gear if the clutch is held in for a long period, especially if you are only travelling at 15 to 20 kmh.

    5) Thicker oil can sometimes inhibit smooth changes. Use a firm, quick movement to change gear, but do not stamp, jerk or force it through.

    The symptoms suggest that you are either not changing quickly enough, or have a bad selector system. That usually means a partial stripdown to fix.

    The gears are not grinding because of a poor clutch function (you can noiselessly change gears without the clutch on any bike with a little practise) but due to selector or technique issues.

    You do NOT need a working clutch to make good gearchanges if you are experienced. The fact that you can get it into gear and hold your position with the clutch in really means that you do not have a clutch problem...

    6) If it doesn't want to go into gear from neutral, let the clutch out and try again. If the bike allows you to sit with the clutch in while in gear, without you having to hold it using the brakes, the clutch is fine.

    7) Always select gear as soon as you pull the clutch in - don't wait even for a second or two - otherwise the transmission shaft could have stopped turning and the dogs will not be able to engage with the slots/holes in the next gear if they are not lined up.

    They line themselves up properly when there is a certain amount of differential motion involved between the two, either from the engine turning the input shaft, or the rear wheel moving and turning the output shaft, when the other shaft is stopped or moving at a different speed.

    All the best

    Trevor G
  9. i mightve been a little emotive using the word boot ...but u get the general idea.

    i cant compete with that many dot points though
  10. And don't you ferget it!! ;-)

    Hey, I know you know, but sometimes when we deal with newcomers they don't understand. The OP probably just needs an experienced rider to check out his issue...and say, "They're all like that" or "Man, that things a bomb!"


    Trevor G
  11. Yea thanx Trev,
    I am fairly new to bikes, started last year, riding, and just got this bike couple months ago, so it would be nice for someone to check it out who knows how things go, your probably right if what your saying is fact, I do sometimes hold in the clutch too long before making gear change, especially when i take off with a lot of revs in 1st, i hold in the clutch and wait for the revs to drop before changing into second, I thought it was doing more harm if i changed gears while the revs were still high. The clutch may be ok, it does hold the bike in gear without brake and i can roll it in gear with the clutch pressed. Next time i have the same problem ill release the clutch then try again with a quicker change and see what happens,
    thanx again
  12. Ultimately, the goal is to release the clutch just as the engine reaches the new "target engine speed", but motorcycle flywheels are so lightweight and the engines so light that for upshifting, you should really just "get it over with" quickly and smoothly.

    Particularly on my Tiger - if I hold the clutch even a moment longer than is necessary, the revs drop too low and the clutch has to spin the engine back up to speed.
  13. you need to improve your throttle control - if the revs fall too far, it is a function of your right hand, not your left.
  14. I understand that, and can/do control the engine revs if I need to.

    I was using it as an example for why Tomcatalex doesn't need to hold the clutch in for a long period of time when changing gears.
  15. the thing is ive been driving manual cars for years (not giving away my age) but try to do the same with the bike, never liked riding the clutch, but they told me a rider learner school that bikes are different and like riding the clutch is ok, so thats why ive been holding the clutch in and taking my time with the whole thing, i thought if i rush it i may be wearing the thing out or the crunching was due to me doing it to fast, therefore ive been getting worse with time as each time im doing it slower, may just ride it like i drive my car.
  16. Thanks Trevor, didn't know alot of that :)
  17. the point about the clutch though is that you can keep holding it all day while you get the engine speed right if you have to.

    You shouldn't be teaching a beginner to do things fast - you don't need to, nor does it teach you anything.

    You can give a learner a shopping list of things to do in individual order. THey practice each part, then as they get better they can start to combine them.

    1. pull clutch
    2. toe lever up and hold it
    3. change engine speed
    4. let clutch out.

    With this list, you can take 10 seconds or more to change gear if you need to.

    later, you include
    0. roll off throttle

    and combine 2 and 3
  18. Mmm. When the instructors talk about 'riding the clutch' being less of an issue on a wet-clutch bike than a dry-clutch car, they're referring to slow-speed maneuvering - slipping the clutch and dragging the rear brake to help with very slow maneuvers such as U-turns or when you have to ride slower than walking pace.

    Mind you, there are some bikes with dry clutches (most Ducatis, some BMWs, for example), which have to be treated like car clutches.
  19. would this help

    might try this too