Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

National ID card by Stealth ?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by helina handbasket, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. So is this new smart card , an ID card by another name, sure it's not compulsory "yet", but your gonna need one to talk to the government

  2. While I do believe it may be useful in the fight against fraud and identify theft I do not particularly see it being particularly useful in the fight against terrorism.

    That being said it is only as a good as the safeguards present within the system. There are devices around nowadays that can read the information off the magnetic stripe in your credit (or ATM card) and imprint it onto a blank card. There is nothing to say that various nefarious organisations will not be able to do the same thing with the chip that would be used in the smart card.
  3. Yeah, I don't particularly like the idea.
    I thought they tried to bring this in a few years ago, but we're pretty much flatly rejected by the public?
    This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card sounds familiar.
    I wonder what's changed?
  4. +1 to that.... just call it something else, and the public woun't realise what we are doing :roll: :evil:

    as also stated, those that want to get around it will still do so....so all it does is punish the general public yet again :cry:
  5. same crap as they tried to feed us before with more sugar on it
  6. its dodgy as that they throw in the current buzz word, "terrorism" to try to sell it. the really scary/threatening terrorists dont dodge the system... they live amongst us untill need of them arises.
  7. I like Johnny's quote on the subject. Something like "It won't be compulsory to have a smart card, but there are many services which non-card holders will not be able to access". Which, of course, is another way of saying that you ain't gonna get Medicare (not that Medicare's gonna be around much longer), Centrelink benefits, treatment at government hospitals, and maybe even government education unless you've got one. What a pack of arseholes.

    It's like when religious people say "Sure you have a choice about believing. You can either believe in God, or you can go to hell as a heathen". Sweet, thanks for the well balanced choices, dickhead!
  8. Come on guys. What are you afraid of? With the intoduction of this those with multiple identities will be flush out as well as those with fake identities. A system that can identify a person accurately is a good system. It does not matter what name is it called. I will go for it. :grin: :cool:
  9. Can someone pls tell me what this card will have that my licence wont?

    And if people can forged passports, licences, steal ATM pins im sure those with the $$ will be able to buy a forged one of these aswell.
  10. I'll tell you what has changed. Johny doesn't give a crap about the opinions of the electorate, and will push it through whether it is a good/necisary/popular/... idea or not. if johny thinks it is what he wants, then it is what we get.

    now every body stop whining. bend over and take it like a good little pleb, we are not meant to think this much (So is the word of the church of Johnny)
  11. I'm with you. It seems like one of those things that only people who are corrupt or dodgy in some way need be worried about. If this one card is gonna replace a hand full of cards in my wallet, that's good enough for me. :)
  12. The problem with the argument for national ID cards is usually based in fear or paranoia. This card will help us tell the difference between us and them. With compulsory ID cards, I am reminded of the World War II movies where the Nazi's bark "Papers" and citizens duely produce them. The point is that if a society needs a compulsory ID card system, then there are core problems there that will not be solved by that card system.

    As for this card, it depends on how its implemented. If the vast majority of people in Australia have private health cover, then it could be percieved as such. But a drivers licence would be nearer to a national ID card than a private health card.
  13. Do you realy believe that it is so simple?
    First off, it will not replace any of your Bank/Credit/Membership cards, so in fact all it will do is move things like Medicare, Health Care, Centerlink together.

    Second, The card is not really an issue. the potential cross referencing of teh data behind the card is where the issues reside. now if you trust the government, then yep there is no issue. Then again, our government sells the curent census information, what marketing information would be available with this sort of system?

    What sort of discrimination of services could be enacted with this sort of cross referencing? "Oh you were once busted for smoking pot so you are no longer allowed to go to the premium health care facilities" (But of corse it would never be stated so blatently it would just be "there are no appointments available, try this second rate facility") now what i am sugesting could be the wildest of conspiricy theories, (And i am not a big fan of those) But this sort of card would never go away, so even if no government is underhanded enough to do this sort of thing now (Because we all trust johnny) We have no idea what government will look like in 10 years time. (I mena look how it has changed in the last 10 years)
  14. I work with a lot of people that hop from country to country. The interesting thing is that when they come back to Aus and go and get their licence again they are given their old licence number.

    Seems we already have a national ID card.

    Think about how powerful your licence is these days and how often it is asked for

    So I don't get what all this is about at the moment. I'm very suspicious there is an ulterior motive here.
  15. FALCON-LORD do really think this card is gonna tell the Gov't anything they don't already know about you now? I don't expect it to replace my bank cards or gym memberships, but yes it will replace my medicare, health care etc into one card, great!
  16. ....I don't get how this will stop identity theft. I mean, doesn't it make it easier to steal someone's identity if you can duplicate the information from the smart card. You now have access to all their government facilities so have successfully stolen their whole identity. Like putting all your eggs in the one basket. How can such a small man (Howard) want to be such a Big Brother. Welcome to Howard's Brave New World.....
  17. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4444512.stm

    sorry for it being so long.. but if you think that ID cards will help things this is a must read. Please note there is no tabloidism, just good common sense .....
    from a well respected security analyst:

    " Yes, indeed, the card would be a minor invasion of our privacy, and undoubtedly it would add to the growing list of interruptions and delays we encounter every day; but we live in dangerous times, we live in a new world.... "

    It all sounds so reasonable, but there's a lot to disagree with in such an attitude.

    The potential privacy encroachments of an ID card system are far from minor. And the interruptions and delays caused by incessant ID checks could easily proliferate into a persistent traffic jam in office lobbies and airports and hospital waiting rooms and shopping malls.

    But my primary objection isn't the totalitarian potential of national IDs, nor the likelihood that they'll create a whole immense new class of social and economic dislocations. Nor is it the opportunities they will create for colossal boondoggles by government contractors. My objection to the national ID card, at least for the purposes of this essay, is much simpler.

    It won't work. It won't make us more secure.

    In fact, everything I've learned about security over the last 20 years tells me that once it is put in place, a national ID card program will actually make us less secure.

    My argument may not be obvious, but it's not hard to follow, either. It centers around the notion that security must be evaluated not based on how it works, but on how it fails.

    It doesn't really matter how well an ID card works when used by the hundreds of millions of honest people that would carry it. What matters is how the system might fail when used by someone intent on subverting that system: how it fails naturally, how it can be made to fail, and how failures might be exploited.

    The first problem is the card itself. No matter how unforgeable we make it, it will be forged. And even worse, people will get legitimate cards in fraudulent names.

    Two of the 9/11 terrorists had valid Virginia driver's licenses in fake names. And even if we could guarantee that everyone who issued national ID cards couldn't be bribed, initial cardholder identity would be determined by other identity documents... all of which would be easier to forge.

    Not that there would ever be such thing as a single ID card. Currently about 20 percent of all identity documents are lost per year. An entirely separate security system would have to be developed for people who lost their card, a system that itself is capable of abuse.

    Additionally, any ID system involves people... people who regularly make mistakes. We all have stories of bartenders falling for obviously fake IDs, or sloppy ID checks at airports and government buildings. It's not simply a matter of training; checking IDs is a mind-numbingly boring task, one that is guaranteed to have failures. Biometrics such as thumbprints show some promise here, but bring with them their own set of exploitable failure modes.

    But the main problem with any ID system is that it requires the existence of a database. In this case it would have to be an immense database of private and sensitive information on every Australian -- one widely and instantaneously accessible from airline check-in stations, police cars, schools, and so on.

    The security risks are enormous. Such a database would be a kludge of existing databases; databases that are incompatible, full of erroneous data, and unreliable. As computer scientists, we do not know how to keep a database of this magnitude secure, whether from outside hackers or the thousands of insiders authorized to access it.

    And when the inevitable worms, viruses, or random failures happen and the database goes down, what then? Is Australia supposed to shut down until it's restored?

    Proponents of national ID cards want us to assume all these problems, and the tens of billions of dollars such a system would cost -- for what? For the promise of being able to identify someone?

    What good would it have been to know the names of Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, or the DC snipers before they were arrested? Palestinian suicide bombers generally have no history of terrorism. The goal is here is to know someone's intentions, and their identity has very little to do with that.

    And there are security benefits in having a variety of different ID documents. A single national ID is an exceedingly valuable document, and accordingly there's greater incentive to forge it. There is more security in alert guards paying attention to subtle social cues than bored minimum-wage guards blindly checking IDs.

    That's why, when someone asks me to rate the security of a national ID card on a scale of one to 10, I can't give an answer. It doesn't even belong on a scale.
  18. Wow good piece!

    The card is not the issue, we all carry around cards that are in fact ID cards of one description or another.

    The issue as I see it is that this gives the government the excuse to start to link databases across departments, they are already doing this of course. Recent example the ATO are going to be targeting "tax cheats" who hide their money in expensive cars, they can only find out this information from the RTA/Vic Roads etc.

    [quote The Age today] A national identity card has been ruled out by the federal government, but it says it is integrating national databases to better identify Australians [/quote]

    A national ID card does not make us more secure, discussion, being tolerant of people, good social and international policies, freedom of religion and an effective intelligence organisation can.

    I have nothing to hide and an ID card is not going to effect me. I am thinking of the future here, what about my kids or their kids? Do we want them living in some Big Brother 1984 world? Don't say it wont happen, that's what the Russians, Germans, Cubans etc etc all said, Lets give away a bit and the people in power will look after us!!!
  19. The problem with all these central databases (and that is waht this card is) is that the people who run them are so f**king hopeless when it comes to security it's a joke.

    They had a case in the US where some crowd passed themselves as respectable business men and managed to social engineer their way into getting access to the personal details of millions of americans.
    Cases like this are not unique, the US also has "terrorist databases" where sometimes avegare citizens are flagged by mistake. It takes years to get them to admit the problem let alone fix it.

    I don't mind putting ALL my details in the DB on the condition that if it is ever compromised I get 100 Million dollars compo.
    Only thing is they will never guartanee it's fault proof.

    True it only happens for maybe 0.1% of the population, but you will be in hell if you are in that 0.1%

    The idea is good only problem is the people who run it

  20. I'm not fussed and those complaining loudest usually are those with something to hide :wink:

    I don't claim anything from Centrelink, hardly use my Medicare card and pay all the taxes I'm required to and other than posting on this forum have nothing I hide from the general public that would be stored on the card.

    I only hope the number they give me lines up with my Australian Government Service (AGS) number that every public servant has for life (military or just normal public servant) or I'll have another long number to remember.