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QLD My understanding of speed kills fallacy

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by 01slinky07, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. #1 01slinky07, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
    Since there hasnt been a thread specific to this subject for a few yrs, im going to attempt start the ball rolling again... It has been proven over the years, in many european countries, that what they promote here, to ensure 'road safety', by the continued lowering of speed limits, is a total crock of bs.. its evidential, by those european countries, that driver/rider awareness & skill is much more effective in lowering crash &kill ratio.. But our illustrious government &plodforce, wouldnt be gathering the high levels of revenue raised, by us being more skilled road users.. Instead they continue to lower the levels of skill/aptitude for licences to be aquired. They continue lowering average speed allowances, & percentages of acceptable excess, whilst raising enforcement fee schedules, otherwise called fines. They continue to cause distractions by such solid policy enforcement, that everybody, even those with a good degree of spacial awareness, are more likey to be involved in a crash, due to having to continually take their eyes off the road, to check that their speed isnt creeping into the now minimalized allowable amount over the prescribed limit... & then promote to everybody that speed kills, & those that do are treated like life threatening killers. The whole system is a hoax and farce, not unlike the policy makers and enforcers...
    Thats my understanding.. What do all the other license holders/sheep/slaves/citizens understand on the subject matter.. & more, can anything be done about it, without finding yourself in the lockup, as a governmental antagonist?

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  2. While I don't disagree with you - what options do we have? The government has our funds - and can continue to campaign their propaganda. Other organisations (such as the NRMA/RACx) seem to not be interested enough in their own campaigns to try and combat this head on.

    Whilst the rest of us do what the government wants. Gripe about it, and when it comes to election time, give into fear that "the other bad party" might win, so most continue to vote for one of the two main contributors of this problem - with the next in line being anything but pro-motorist...

    I'm not saying that nothing should be done - but rather asking the question - what can be done to try and combat this. This thread can go one of two ways. Be a think tank for actions that can be done, or just end up being another lengthy thread that ends up serving no purpose but to preach to the choir...

    You've mentioned the problem... what's the solution?
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  3. Thanks, that was fairly well just what id been editing the first post to include.. Were on the same page
  4. Agree completely with all the above, but unfortunately we are flogging a dead horse.

    There's simply too much revenue (fines) to risk by the government being rationale and changing this attitude (it's simply a better and easier tax).

    I cant see this ever being reversed, ever.
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  5. The solution is effective lobbying by organisations such as the National Motorcycle Alliance (NMA), VMC and MCC(NSW) and their members. Currently these 3 organisations are showing a lot of others how it's done.

    In NSW the NMA and MCC(NSW) have worked together and with effective mailing (electronic and snail) from members have successfully fought a massive increase in CTP prices (it was also instrumental in the removal of at least one government minister) and introduced legalised lane filtering. In VIC the VMC have been successful in getting lane filtering legalised.

    I think what needs to be done is one you see someone pushing the speed kills fallacy is to combat it with facts and reason, only resorting to name calling if they are particularly moronic and seem unable to understand words with more than one syllable.
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  6. #6 01slinky07, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
    It would appear that we, the people, need to make haste, in any attempt to create these changes. The policies now in place, give grounds for the merry go round of raising fines & lowering speed limits to continue without end, or at least till we're all subject to driving/riding around at speeds no more than a fast runner. Ie, As the skill levels of new licence holders is obviously decreasing, the speed limits we know are decreasing, and the potenetial of being caught by more diligent revenue collectors is increasing, thereby causing even less awareness of drivers, who are now continually taking their eyes off the road, to ensure a correct speed, which then ends up in more accidents caused, giving cause to further lower the limits.. They have us caught exactly where they want us, in a devolving merry go round, that somehow needs to be stopped and addressed, and highlite the absurdity of the ensuing policies and speed limits, b4 were all better of catching public transport. Unfortunately, i believe the nrma, is a little, in the pocket of the policy makers and enforcers, though the other groups you mentioned may be showing a little more ethic, intellect and insight
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  7. Cut to the chase - how do you argue against the 'speed kills' industry in the light of yesterday's Whitten Bridge crash? Because essentially, that's what happened. It's pretty difficult to suggest that if the driver hadn't been speeding it would have happened anyway. This was a case of excessive speed, in inexperienced hands, in absolutely the wrong place.
    If you want to change the paradigm, you need to design an alternative that answers this question.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with the OP's premise. The current regime (for all it's blanket propaganda) failed to stop yesterday's tragedy. And it failed to stop all the other fatal crashes.

    But you need a credible alternative if you really want to take on the established order.
    I would nominate the training-heavy system in Finland as an example, but even they are not without recourse to some heavy penalties.
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  8. No bloody 'like' button to hit using either of my devices.. Damn
    Id suggest that the accident couldve easily been stopped. As has already been mentioned that licences are given more easily and freely, to persons that cant even merge, be it onto a highway, or just a 2 lane road. So, rather than lowering the skill level, so everybody has the opportunity to attain a licence, make it so the ohs rules that apply at work apply where it matters, if u arent fully competent to do the job, then u mustnt, and make that apply to road users. If you cant with ease follow & accomplish all the necessities of safe driving, including merging, using indicators in a timely manner, go through a roundabout with awareness and confidence etc etc, then you shouldnt even be considered to go any further than p's, and better still have those privledges revoked.. The other next & equally important factor, imo, is to send everybody to advanced driver/rider training, make it compulsory for all drivers to have wet weather, dirt, high speed, and recovery experience.. i believe thered be less real 'speeding' and accidents, due to the higher skill levels and awareness of the difficulty of recovery from a high speed loss of control
  9. OK, again no argument with that. So let's move to the next obstacle - how is this extra training paid for? In much of Europe the cost is borne by the applicant. I'm not sure I disagree with this approach but it will pose a greater obstacle for some socio-economic groups than others - is this desirable or fair?
    There will be some who suggest that fewer road users will mean fewer crashes (reduced exposure - the favourite mantra of MUARC). Again, hard to argue against on a simple level.
    Just questions, I don't know the answers.
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  10. is it about training, or more about progressive experience? Australia is very different to Europe in allowing young drivers into pretty high powered rear wheel drive cars. I know there is a power/weight limit but it has been deliberately set to include base commodore/falcon and those are cars where it can go pear shaped pretty quickly. I know there are lots of arguments that you can still speed in an excel but the truth is that a smaller lower powered car is generally more forgiving of mistakes.

    in the UK, the insurance requirements effectively force inexperienced drivers and riders into small low powered vehicles, and it is only by showing a history of good driving that premiums for more fun vehicles become affordable.

    so maybe some combination of progressive power/weight limits plus a stick/carrot insurance incentive? a kind of LAMS for cars?
  11. As a start I'd suggest fewer speed cameras and more actual police on the road, visible and a deterrent against the stupidest drivers (and riders) - BUT - not just blindly pulling over anyone 3 kph over the limit. Rather an evenhanded and measured approach to policing ALL road rules (including personal favourites of right lane hogs, texting/phone drivers). There is a great need to focus on these other road problems and get drivers better accustomed to doing all of these properly - not having 100% focus on the bloody speedo all the time (ok, 30% focus as the other 70% is on the phone, or shaving, or trying not to spill coffee etc)

    Was just away in SW Victoria last week. Every "police now targeting..." sign I saw said "speed". Nothing else.
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  12. Well considered response Simon.. and that certainly would aid in overcoming the problems in question. I also dont have the answers to the questions that titus proposed, but theres certainly enough smarts within the populace at large, for any such hurdles to be figured out & overcome.. i believe the real issue lies within the question as to whether we, the people have enough nouce, as the much larger percentage, to band together to overcome the restrictions and burdens placed on us, by the few ruling 'elite'.
  13. I would argue that the insurance costs here are pretty high for drivers under 25 in higher powered cars anyway. Some people just don't care.
  14. Cost is a real problem. Few 1st world countries have the 'remoteness' of Australia. Which is a problem for those living in remote and not so remote areas. This also means that not only is the cost of the training itself an issue but the cost of getting to the training can prove to be a huge disincentive.

    If you make getting a car licence too difficult/expensive then there's a risk you have more unlicensed drivers on the road.

    How do you combat what happened on the EJ Whitton? Simple, you don't, well not directly anyway. That type of incident is going to happen regardless of training or penalties imposed, to expect them not to is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalalalala"

    What you need to do is concentrate on the 80%+ of incidents that could have been avoided by better training/education and more visible policing techniques.
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  15. Giving everyone a licence is cheaper than providing proper mass transit systems.

    I drove extensively on euro motorways and the autobahnen last year and can confirm speed doesn't kill.

    Lack of aptitude and skills does.
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  16. Wheres the like button. My firm belief also Ayekay.. its more about governmental greed than anything else as to why changes as such couldnt, or rather wouldnt, without a massive push from the populace, be implemented
  17. Good question. I'll have a dip. :)

    One could argue that the 'speed kills' industry contributed to what has occurred yesterday:

    Contributing factors could include:

    The authorities losing credibility - With campaigns trying to justify booking drivers for low speed infringements (the highest revenue earner) - more people are becoming calaust when it comes to warning messages and pleas from authorities. The boy who cried wolf...

    The authorities focused in the wrong areas - Again. The 'easy' money comes from Camera's and whatever can repeat income the most. Anyone wanting to flout this can find ways to get around it. In this case, they apparently were using ancient technology (2 way radios) to avoid the authorities - because the government is lusting after where it can make the most money.

    The misunderstanding of the same terminology - Speeding - once referred to excessive speed, now thanks to campaigns encompasses all - from the basic couple of km's over the limit, right through to double or tripple the speed limit. One person's understanding of 'speeding' is different to the next.

    The misunderstanding that speed is the killer - Our youth are growing up to be told that either speed, alcohol or drugs are the big issues. Focus is taken away from other more important foundational factors, which includes attitude, road craft, situational awareness, environmental changes and road conditions to name a few.

    Excessive speed was a contributing factor - but what caused the excessive speed? It didn't just 'happen'. This goes back to attitude. You want stop the contributing factors until you stop the primary cause(s).

    I wonder what our kids are taught in school these days? I remember when I was a kid and a police officer came to talk about driving habits - I don't ever recall minor speeding infringements even being on the table. The focus was on our attitude, situational awareness, etc - not wiping off 5.

    The misunderstanding that you can save everyone - It might be calaust - but some people simply have to learn the hard way. And some people don't learn at all. You can campaign all you want, and believe in your own propaganda (zero is possible) - but people are people and will make mistakes. In addition to this never underestimate the determination of idiot's to be idiot's. In these situations education is simply not going to be the answer. Pick your battles, and put energy and effort in to where it's going to have the best return on investment - and stop chasing unicorns.

    The alternative. (Don't laugh) - My suggestion is simply "truth".

    Start with appreciating the truth - regardless of whether it's popular or not. Telling the truth.

    IMO - all that we're seeing at the moment with the propaganda is that truth is no longer valued. Governments have no problems breaking promises, and also blatantly lying to the people. Apparently it's not called lying anymore - it's been flowered up to the word "Spin", or "politics" and it's now apparently an accepted practice. Likewise bias reporting as opposed to objective reporting is considered news and accepted now too.

    In the same way that I see excessive speed a contributing factor, but not a root cause - I see the 'Speed' campaign a contributing factor - and not the root cause as well. The root cause is the lack of respect for truth, and the desire to spin, tell part truths, stretch the truth or straight out lie to get what you want. (Revenue in this case)

    And it's not just governments. Media, social agenda's. It's everywhere. Truth is being valued less and less. People increasingly wanting to hear what they want to hear and what's more convenient, rather than the cold hard truths.

    If we want to see results - everyone (not just pointing fingers at the govt) needs to put aside their bias, their agenda's, their ideologies - and start valuing real truth above all. And then debate based on the truth. Not statistics that are warped to already give a certain desired outcome. Studies could be done (or reviewed from other countries) by people with no other agenda or bias than to find out the truth. No link to organisations, and no financial rewards if it sways one way or another.

    When we get to a point where truth is being valued once again - then we can start looking at alternatives - but whilst truth is shown nothing but contempt - we'll just go from one bad goal to another, and each group will just push it's desires and goals with no regards for anything else.
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  18. #18 01slinky07, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
    Dude.. you rock my world.. Theres some insight into the TRUTH of the matter, clearly and concisely detailed.. perfect in every way.. thankyou..at the same time, in saying that.. it is just pipe dreams we're chasing here, under this system of corruption in which we exist..
  19. Probably not just don't care. Bear in mind we are mainly a mining economy, if you jump straight into an apprenticeship out of school, you're a fully qual'd tradesman by 21-22, and with the accompanying pay packet have the means to afford fast toys and the price of admission to play with them.
  20. I've seen a few people mention the license tests have been made easier to ensure a higher pass rate - is this a fact? If anything I would have thought it's harder now (than when I did mine over 20 years ago) but I don't know any L or P platers.