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My turn for a slide..

Discussion in 'General Motorcycling Discussion' at netrider.net.au started by daiakuji, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. Hey all
    Had my first real off on Saturday night. After riding out to have dinner with my dad at Kingsford, I did a lap and fueled up around my area. Seeing as it was only just 8:30, I figured I could ride over to Kurnell and back to see how I've improved.
    Made it over to Kurnell and had a break and thought "wow, I actually did it!" and decided to start riding home. Made it to Taren Point Rd and was across the bridge, there's a curve. So as I was turning, my back wheel started shaking so I think I applied some rear break to stead but the wheel locked and I applied the front brakes and turned into it so the bike went sideways. As I went down I let go, was knocked out and slide for apparently 20m.
    When I woke up, there were 2 ambo's checking me out and I think I saw a few other guys around..probably the ones that called the ambos.
    So they took me off to St George Hospital and checked me all out. Luckily, no broken bones..just sore on the neck and a few places...huge grazing on my left side but nothing too deep. Kept me around to check that I didn't have Post Traumatic Amnesia but they saw I was fine.

    Was discharged this afternoon and checked out my gear when I got home. The helmet and jacket seemed to have taken the most damage...haven't been able to see my baby yet :( I'd imagine the mirror+indicator of the side I let slide would be gone and the fairings would be torn..probably would be repaired/replaced but not written off.
    Called the policewoman who was taking my case and she's off til Thursday. Not sure if I should call the insurance now or wait til the police have their report.

    Just like to say thanks to the people who stopped and called the ambulance for me. And for everyone else, please ride safe
  2. Who the frack teaches noobs to rely on the rear frackin BRAKE?!?!?

    Sorry you had a spill.

    What have you learned from this incident. What would you do differently next time?
  3. rob - I think I went to use the rear because I wanted to slow myself down (wasn't really speeding, 70-80 in an 80 zone). But yea..
    I think I've learnt that I should've prepared for that corner better...probably shift down a gear or two and use engine braking before the start of the turn. Or maybe should've used a bit of the front brakes rather than rear? Probably the problem was that I was overconfident and thought I could make that turn, but wasn't sure why the rear starting giving out as I was turning. Possibly tire pressure? Gravel? Strong winds?
    Probably would need to take a few tuition lessons or the advance learner course to try and improve my knowledge.
    But if anyone has advice on how to improve in that situation, I'm all ears.
  4. Robsalvv: It might be a bit more useful to mention the correct way to recover rather than criticise..

    And when I did Q-ride, they told me to rely on the rear brakes if the bike is ever unstable. So maybe you should be talking to the training schools about that one.

    Daiakuji: Glad to hear you came out alright, by the sounds of it things could have been a lot worse.
    Also on an unrelated topic, what does your name mean? tis Japanese, no?

  5. Thanks for your input. The exact suggestion was covered not a week ago.

    Search on my user knick and "rear brake" if you want to see how much "education" I've done on these forums. Anyway, until the OP comes back with what he's learned, I'm making my point in different ways.

    Well now you're responsible for your own safety. Learning doesn't stop at the Qride school. I've spent years on this forum talking about the pitfalls of the rear brake. The OP's story and the other guy recently who went down a cliff from "stabalising the rear" with the rear brake are exact prime example of the risks involved.

    My attitude is tough love.

    Anyway, here's some light reading for you.

    http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=064 has this pearler:
    The most dangerous control you have on your motorcycle is your rear brake! This, because it is easy to STOP (your rear wheel) with it. A spinning rear wheel is what provides the majority of your bike's stability. The gyroscopic effect of a spinning rear wheel is imposed on the frame of the motorcycle and determines the attitude/stability of the entire bike except for its relatively insignificant front-end. To lock the rear wheel is, by definition, to remove the majority of your attitude control and stability.

  6. Dude, so many possibilities.

    No doubt you came in too hot for your perception of the corner. What was the corners marked advisory speed? If you had the confidence, all you needed to do was countersteer harder.

    There are threads and threads and more threads covering what you could do if coming in too hot. Rear brake is the last thing I'd recommend.

    Summary of tips:
    Stop rolling on the throttle and steer harder.
    Stop rolling on the throttle, reduce throttle slightly and steer harder.
    Stop rolling on the throttle, reduce throttle slightly and steer harder, then roll off throttle even more if needed.
    Stop rolling on the throttle, reduce throttle slightly, apply tapered front brake and steer harder, roll off throttle more as needed.

    Maybe even, stand her up, ebrake and run off the road.

    Anyone one of those probably would have resulted in you only needing to change your durps.

    Get advanced rider training.
  7. In addition to what Rob said, it is very very very . . . very wrong to apply the front brake when the rear is locked up or sliding. Even a dirt bike rider wouldn't do it, since the only thing it can possibly do is throw the bike over sideways, even if you are turned into the slide. If you have to eBrake because you can't get around the corner you should do it in a straight line and use both brakes, but mainly the front brake, and only while you are still on the bitumen.

    As soon as the rear wheel slides due to excessive braking or compression lockup (or gravel, dust, bark, mud, etc.), let go of all brakes, line the bike up straight again, and either complete the turn by turning harder, or eBrake in a straight line.

    I know, because I still lock up the rear way too often, but on the Multistrada I can just ride through it like a dirt bike. I did it yesterday overtaking on a tight windy road. As normal, I overtook on a right hand corner which had good visibility for oncoming traffic. Ducked across to the right side of the road as the car was taking the corner. Shot passed him on the other side of the road. Unfortunately the driver was an asshole (he had given someone else in our group a hard time, yelling out the window and shaking his fist) so he accelerated in the short straight between corners, forcing me to go deep into the corner and brake harder for the turn. I locked the rear on the off camber right side of the road which had some dust on it. I got quite sideways actually. Let off the brakes, braked again and locked the rear again momentarily, released, while dropping down a couple of gears since I had now wiped off quite a bit of speed. Then as I was still in the middle of the right lane, but was still passed the car, turned in hard and made the turn without going wide on the exit. Of course the idiot in the car thought he would help by blasting his horn at me, and later when I was stopped and he caught up, leaned out the windows shaking his fist and screaming. Some people are really helpful.

    So learn to recover from a rear wheel slide. Do it on a dirt bike if you have to. Your reaction to use the front brake was pure Survival Reaction, and was wrong. Of course it may not have been a problem if you hadn't jammed on the rear brake and locked the rear wheel, if you were still going straight. Learn to brake earlier and get your corner entry speed right, and if you get it wrong, do what Rob said.

    By the way, back wheels don't shake unless there is something seriously wrong with the bike. The back end may have been bouncing about a bit, but that is pretty usual on a rough road. Get used to it, or get better suspension.
  8. Could you please explain this in a little more detail ? Do you mean slide ? In 20 odd years of riding, i've never had a back wheel "shake"

    btw..glad you're ok to ride another day
  9. :roll: LMAO!...Yeah, c'mon Rob..I could only find seventy-bazillion threads where you've passed on well grounded and balanced advice to noobs about cornering and braking...

    I don't believe that's what they taught you, or you have misconstrued what they may have said or have'nt taken it in the context that it was intended...SURELY?
    ....If they ARE telling people just THAT, as a broad statement alone, then I would stay a million miles away from Q-Ride. It's just such a stupidly simplistic thing to say!

  10. I apologise rob, ive been checking back every day for the past couple of weeks but didnt see the other topic.

    I also agree that learning doesnt stop at Q-ride, some of the things they teach I reckon should be changed.. as most of it is assuming you are riding slow and casual and never lose control of the bike
    I guess they just dont want people going fast, even if its still under the speed limit

    Following their instructions i found i couldnt corner at any decent speed no matter how far i lent the bike over. Then I came across another forum which mentioned hanging off the bike for further counterweight, and supporting yourself so that no weight at all is on the handle bars.
    Only cornering issues i had after that was grinding off my footpegs (on a race track I might ad, public roads around here suck)


    PS: Raven - What I meant was they told us to use the rear brake as a stabiliser to stop the bike from becoming unstable.. we were given no instruction at all about what to do if it ever was unstable.
    Only real benefit I got from it was the ability to slalom and emergency swerving where theres not enough room to stop

  11. as the other guy who went down the cliff i think it sounds like training providers are teaching people like myself and the op to rely on the rear break too much. im not trying to say that my accident wasnt my own fault, it was and ive learnt a very painful lesson from it. im just saying that like the op when i did my learners and then later my licence at stay up right they really keep pushing the rear break almost as a fix for any riding error.

    either way my next bike will be having a very stiff spring fitted to the rear break lever like my old dirt bike to make it harder to lock the rear brake, not that ill be too keen to touch that pedal
  12. Hi Chris...that's a bit better....you see...at LOW speed your rear brake is your friend (say under 10-15k's around car parks, doing Ueys etc. After that it becomes far less useful (generally speaking).
    At low speed the rear brake provides some drag upon which the throttle can be balanced for very stable low speed control. (use it all the time, myself)...but once you are out on the open road at regular speeds, you stay away from the darn thing. There are advanced techniques for rear braking, but this is not the time to be bringing those into this conversation or experience level.
    No worries mate. :)

  13. Another thing to add regarding the rear brake, is I don't really use it ever.. despite that day in q-ride where it was forced upon me

    But even today when a stupid maltese puppy decided to run across the road, instead of grabbing the clutch and both brakes I instinctively grabbed the front brake only, and dropped down 4 gears blipping the throttle and using the clutch/engine to slow the rear wheel.
    It seemed to do the trick and I'd say would come pretty close to that of using both brakes with clutch in

    Seeing as the puppy decided to go towards me then stop directly in my path, I had to almost come to a complete stop and was glad i was already in 1st gear to take off again

    In the past during track days I've tried using engine braking and rear brakes at the same time but every attempt ended with the back wobbling and I haven't tried since

  14. you can just adjust the pedal so you have to push a long way before it engages.
  15. hahahaa, thanks mate. :) Keep up your good work too mate. :) :)
  16. Sorry to hear about your off mate, it really bites the big one.

    Glad to hear that your ok.

    +1 on the idea of backing off the back brake twistngo I did this to the wife's bike so that it is almost impossible (on a dry road anyway) to lock the bastard up.

    my big bike is off the road too at the moment. It sucks bigtime

  17. What's wrong with using the rear brake ? :-s
    Joking ...
    Glad to hear you are ok mate.

  18. Geez mate sorry to hear about your off... Happened in my local too, I'm just over in Caringbah. Was it the first curve over the bridge? The bit where its a sweeping left hander then gradually chicane's to the right? If its that corner, then it sounds like you just didn't respond in the best fashion. Its all learning though mate, every crash is a new lesson, wear your mental and physical scars with pride. Fark, though did u slide off and hit the barrier? Which lane were you in?
  19. And another thing,
    Im becoming increasingly concerned with exactly what they teach at the level 1 learner course these days.

    Just like incest and day light savings, motorcycle rider training was introduced in tasmania back in the 80's.

    When I did my course it was longer (about 2.5 days by memory) and they covered a lot more than they do now.

    There was a little less of an emphasis on doing u-turns, slow rides etc and more on riding defensively, correct lines when cornering and yes they even touched on how you can adjust your line in a corner with limited use of the rear brake.

    I was a bit concerned when the wife came home and told me what she learned in the course.

    She could ride around a carpark but didnt really know how to approach a corner, or where to position herself on the road.

    Surely these are important skills that should be taught from the beginning rather than left to level 2


  20. In Vic, they do teach these things. Well, 'teach' is perhaps too strong. They are mentioned.

    So much of the course time is spent on the bike, practising the skills for the test, the theory is easily forgotten.