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Motorcycle Pollution - Paris Study

Discussion in 'General Motorcycling Discussion' at netrider.net.au started by dan, Jul 4, 2005.

  1. This is interesting:

    from http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf

    "The French government agency, ADEME (the French environment & energy agency), published their report on Wednesday on motorcycle pollution. According to ADEME, the number of old motorcycles is too big, thereby causing additional pollution.

    Today, there are 2.4 million motorcycles & scooters in France, versus 29 million cars. The 2.4 million motorcycles use only about 1 % of the gasoline used, but their polluting gasses represent 10% of the total CO2 emitted in France!

    The worst offenders, and there's no surprise here, are the 2-stroke motorcycles & scooters. Most polluted 5 times more than a car equipped with a catalyzer, while some polluted 25 times more than a car.

    But those figures are for older motorcycles. New motorcycles, those that respect the Euro1 and Euro2 pollution rules emit less pollution that cars (between 50 and 100 g/km depending on type). Big cc motorcycles (ie, bigger than 125/250) still have bad scores, typically 115 g/km for a 400cc and 160 g/km for a 600 cc. By comparison, a car emits 153 g/km !

    So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}).

    The study does not show how much pollution is emitted during a trip from A to B. Independent studies have shown that during rush hour, a trip through the city of Paris, between a bicycle, a motorcycle, a car and the metro, the motorcycle won with an enormous margin (almost 10 x faster), followed by metro, bicycle and then car. So maybe the car pollutes less by kilometer, but since the car stays in traffic about 10 times longer, the car pollutes more.

    But that's something the politicians and powers-to-be do not take into account !! Anyway, if you want to reduce pollution by older motorcycles, just give them financial incentives to change their 2 wheelers !!

    Click here to access ADEME website (in English)"
  2. Recent chat on a UK Forum suggests that many existing bikes (ZZR12, CBR1000 etc) will be dropped from the range in the UK in the near future due to Emissions requirements by the EU... Scary but true... apprarently.
  3. Its worth mentioning though, that most cars in France tend to have engines smaller than 2 litres.
  4. many of the new bikes from japan have catalysers now - and i think it might be interesting to compare C02 outputs of a 150hp car to a 150hp bike, per km :)

    Comparing a litre sports bike or tourer to a 1.4L small car in a parisian commute is probably a little unfair - but ban the two smokes i reckon!
  5. There are cleaner two strokes available now, ones that meet euro 1 and euro 2 (not sure about euro 3).

    The question remains... about large sports bikes though... it's lots harder to get a 1000cc highly tuned sports bike motor to produce 150ps and meet pollution limits than it is to get a 1300cc 100ps touring bike motor to meet the limits.
  6. I'm pretty sure that the 2 Strokes that do comply do so by utilising the Orbital Technology from Australia.
  7. The classic CAR movement in England is presently fighting the same battle. Legislators there are trying to get older cars off the road for the same reason.

    It has even got to the point where owners of older, pre-unleaded cars are being offered ridiculous amounts of money by the new car distributors to trade in their old cars on new ones that don't pollute as much.

    All of this sounds very laudable except when it becomes apparent that the intention is to SCRAP thousands of perfectly good cars solely because they don't meet some pencil-pushing bureaucrat's guidelines of what should be on the road and what shouldn't.

    It needs to be noted here that there are 2 groups of people who own older cars. Enthusiasts, who do because they WANT to and low-income earners who own them because that's all they can afford.

    When the classic car people in England kicked up a fuss about this and showed that a huge proportion of these older cars were better maintained and emitted less pollutants than new cars do, the whole "get the old bangers off the road" campaign faltered somewhat.

    On a related issue, I note that the debate about the pernicious effects of pullutants from unleaded fuel that vastly outweigh the effects of lead in fuel has gone quiet again.
  8. Take my advice all poms looking at this forum from the mother land. Move to Australia. Its warm, sunny and the beers cold here.
  9. Getting away from the subject.........

    Paris is one of the most motorcycle freindly places on earth. You can ride a scooter when 14 in france yet can't drive a car until 17. This makes for a driving community that have all at one time or another riden a motorcycle as most 14 year olds get a scooter as soon as they can. Go and ride a bike around Paris in the rush hour and watch how many cars get out the way, give you room and let you over take without first trying to kill you.
  10. I've just come back from a holiday in Paris. Bikes, bikes and more bikes, scooters, scooters and more and more scooters. As a percentage of actual vehicles on the roads, would have been at least 30% of all vehicles, my guess is that Melbourne might have 1% on a good day.
    A lot of them are 5-10y/old 2 stroke screamers, but there weren't many ancient Vespas and the like.
    One thing I noticed though, was that diesel cars and trucks and buses don't spew out as much pollution as their Australian counterparts, they were a hell of a lot cleaner. With as many buses in London as there are, that was a good thing.

    Stuart T
  11. Would that be a result of better quality diesel fuel, or better maintained vehicles? Or perhaps their fleet is on average not as old as it is here?
  12. Speaking as a Bus company manager (so I'm supposed to know this stuff ;-)

    There are a number of emmisions standards, Australia is following the Euro standards path (the US system is different).

    Initially Euro I, then II currently III, IV is scheduled for late 2007/early 2008.

    Euro V specifications have been finalised but an introduction date has not been set (it is estimated to be 2010 to 2012).

    OK... Firstly - Australia has only recently introduced low sulpher diesel (50 ppm), and before that Diesel fuel in Oz was 500ppm and before that (when unregulated) was as high as 1500ppm. The fuel companies were required to introduce ultra low sulphur fuel in 2006 but that deadline has been extended (not sure exactly to when... sometime near the end of 2007).

    Secondly - Meeting emissions standards for diesel vehicles beyond Euro III requires ultra low sulpher diesel fuel, so until that is available heavy vehicle purchasers simply cannot purchase Euro IV compliant vehicles (the manufacturers only supply vehicles to a region meeting that regions regulations).

    Thirdly - Existing Euro I and Euro II (and to a lesser extent Euro III) vehicles when run on Ultra Low Suphur diesel produce significantly less particulates (the visible polution that you can see belching out) than when run on Low Sulpher, Medium Sulphur or High Sulphur diesel fuel.

    Fourthly - Fleet Age - (And I can only speak for bus fleets here) Average fleet ages in Victoria and NSW and WA are about 8 to 10 years (which is similar to most first world countries), but Qld slips to 15 years, South Australia to 18 years and Tasmania to a truly terrible 25 years. Obviously the more older vehicles that are still in use the more higher polluting vehicles that are still in use. Governments (particuarly) in QLD, SA and Tas need to make funding available for vehicle replacements and not rely on other states hand-me down vehicles.

    Fifth(ly?) - Maintenance - In Vic and NSW there are strong (independantly assessed) quality assured type maintenance programs for heavy buses along with operator accreditation. QLD and SA have weaker systems and WA and Tas are only starting to go down this parth.

    _NO_ state has a similar system for heavy trucks despite the clear safety and maintenance improvements such systems provide to not only the bus industry but also aviation and other industries.

    Many EU countries (not particuarly the ex soviet ones though) have such systems for _all_ commercial vehicles not just passenger carrying ones.

    Feel free to ask questions if you want and I'll try and answer... but I don't claim to know everything about this complicated subject :)
  13. Isn't that what a catalytic convertor is supposed to do? ie; remove all the excess hydrocarbons and CO from the exhaust gases?

    And that in order to work they require unleaded fuel, otherwise they are ruined. So, the concept of using unleaded fuel and c/converters is a two pronged one.

    Of course, this relies on the converter being maintained and able to perform the required task.

    The past 4 Holdens or Toyotas that I've owned have never had their convertors replaced, as the exhausts these days seem to be long lasting, probably because of their stainless steel construction. So, I do not know if they are or were performing to spec. I have to assume so, given that they all get or were serviced regularly by their respective dealers.
  14. There are scooters all over Paris - and in a city where car parking is rare it's a logical solution and of course reduces congestion!
  15. it's a pity theyre trying to get rid of them... :roll:
  16. Yeah, with our government reducing taxes on 4WD's you wonder if they give a damn about congestion and pollution??

    I would predict rising oil prices will force the logical course of action to be taken and motorcycles encouraged!