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More on the Honda CBR1100XX...

Discussion in 'Bike Reviews, Questions and Suggestions' at netrider.net.au started by Big Gav, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Sent a pm to bugeater who recently bought a blue 05 CBR1100XX and we were comparing notes. I was saying that I was loving my new Blackbird (06 Silver) but mentioned that I noticed that the gears were a little awkward in that I have occasionally missed a gear in my Rossi touring boots and was considering lowering the gear shifter a little to try. He had some good constructive comments which I thought were worth posting;

    "Yeah I'm loving it. The only real issue I'm having is the fuel consumption is rather high. I only got 9km/l on my last tank. I'm hoping it is just my riding style, so I'm trying to keep the cruising RPM below 3000 while commuting and see what happens. Below 3000RPM the O2 sensor supposively adjusts the fuel mix.

    I also just finished installing a Power Commander on it (like an hour and a half ago). It has really smoothed out the power delivery. I found it quite snatchy at low RPM and low gears, which was a bit annoying when going around corners. It seems to be gone now.

    I have found the gears to be a bit clunky too. Once again I think my riding style might affect that a bit.

    I just need to get out and go for a good ride. There are some great motorcycling roads around Melbourne, so I've just got to go find them

    Have you joined the www.ozblackbird.net forums? They seem like a pretty helpful bunch and there is lots of good information there. They are also doing a group buy at the moment on power commanders for a really good price."



     
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  2. closed look feedback is a constant throttle affair, somewhat short of WFO. RPM doesn't usually affect it.

    get some thinner boots or hack off the spigot on the sidestand that stops you getting those thick rossi's under the lever.

    first gen EFI is snatchy - comes with the territory. Pick a higher gear, use the torque a little more and you won't have that surge problem (or drag the brakes everywhere)

    people calculate fuel consumption in different ways and the small tanks on bikes combined with side/centre stand etc can conspire to give very different figures. Has he averaged the figures over a lot of fills? (the pump he used may also be way out of whack and he was ripped off).

    Gearbox clunky? You need to improve the use of your right hand when changing gear. It's a beautiful gearbox.
     
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  3. Most of what I've read says below 3000 rpm it kicks in. I'm not sure if I can trust what i've read though. I would really like to know for sure just what algorithm it runs.

    I'm surprised it's considered 1st gen, since FI has been around for a very, very long time. Anyway, the snatchiness is gone, so it seems to have more to do with the fueling map than any inherent limitations of the fueling system. But of course these things will have a different effect depending on your riding style.

    It's possible that the pump was out, though there does seem to be quite some difference in efficiency from rider to rider. Riding style and bike specific issues seem to be the likely factors. I'm reasonably confident in my measurements (I've plenty of experience in measurement having been a scientist for many years and I've been measuring the efficiency of my bikes since I started riding).

    I do let off the throttle when changing gears. But I'm not the only one who thinks it is a bit clunky especially from first to second. I'm sure it's still a technique thing, but compared with what I've ridden before it is quite clunky. Someone did say they are worse when new, and mine doesn't have many k's on it yet.

    I think most of the issues are probably just technique. I did ride my last bike for about 120,000 km/10 years, so my technique is going to be rather tailored for it and it will take some time to develop a different technique for the bird.

    Marty
     
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  4. gday mate

    hoe you're enjoying the new bike. Yes, EFI has been around for a long time, but not for bikes (high output sportsbikes - the wing has been around a little longer). Honda's first attempt I think was around 1999 with the bird, and the blade came in 2000 with the 929.

    Don't know what the reason is, possibly lean surging to meet emissions requirements, but the first lot can be terrible - look at the SP1!

    As far as use of lambda sensors, I was under the impression that there were two modes of operation for most systems - a normal map, where the ecu tries to meet stochiometric using MAP and O2 sensors at each end of the cylinder, and an open loop map for WOT. The reason for this I believe is the response rates of the lambda sensors aren't high enough for the changing engine speeds you tend to get under max throttle, but i'm not sure on that. At any rate, it makes no sense to have a 3000rpm cut off for ecu fueling under normal conditions.

    As for the box, when you get good enough to do clutchless changes, the box will reward you very well. There is also a rubber damper on first to reduce the clunk from neutral into first - helps if you hold the clutch for a few seconds and load the lever a little before going for first; works a charm :)
     
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  5. gday mate

    hoe you're enjoying the new bike. Yes, EFI has been around for a long time, but not for bikes (high output sportsbikes - the wing has been around a little longer). Honda's first attempt I think was around 1999 with the bird, and the blade came in 2000 with the 929.

    Don't know what the reason is, possibly lean surging to meet emissions requirements, but the first lot can be terrible - look at the SP1!

    As far as use of lambda sensors, I was under the impression that there were two modes of operation for most systems - a normal map, where the ecu tries to meet stochiometric using MAP and O2 sensors at each end of the cylinder, and an open loop map for WOT. The reason for this I believe is the response rates of the lambda sensors aren't high enough for the changing engine speeds you tend to get under max throttle, but i'm not sure on that. At any rate, it makes no sense to have a 3000rpm cut off for ecu fueling under normal conditions.

    As for the box, when you get good enough to do clutchless changes, the box will reward you very well. There is also a rubber damper on first to reduce the clunk from neutral into first - helps if you hold the clutch for a few seconds and load the lever a little before going for first; works a charm :)
     
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  6. Yeah my gear changes are getting better - just a matter of getting a feel for the gear box. Not sure if I want to delve into clutchless changes, since learning it could be damaging. Shame my Across has died - I could have practiced on it.

    As to the EFI, I believe it is just an extension of the PGM-FI they use in their cars. http://www.pgmfi.org is a great resource on it. It seems you are right - the O2 sensor operation is load/throttle based as opposed to rpm based. I just found the 3000 rpm limit in another couple of places - probably not reliable sources of info.

    I was actually hoping I could find someone who has a program for autotuning - essentially dyno tuning but while you are driving around. The megasquirt open-source EFI system has a program that does it. Unfortunately I haven't found anything that could be used with the PCIII. Shame, since all you would need to do is install a wide-band O2 sensor, plug in your laptop and drive around. The software works out the best map. That would be cool :grin:

    Marty
     
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  7. Not true, mate. The only risk that's associated with a clutchless change, mainly changing up, is that you may expect to find a false neutral or two, if you're not firm enough with your changing technique.

    The way that bike gearboxes are designed, it makes it hard to wreck them through sloppy changes, with clutch or without. They're what they are called "constant mesh" gears, which means that 1st, 2nd, etc are always engaged. A series of dog clutches are actually selected when you operate the gear lever, to phsycally engage the required gear. If you change slowly, you can hear the dog clutches clashing. But they're designed to do that. They're either on or off, as it were. No in betweens.

    To change down clutchless requires a certain amount of skill and co-ordination as you blip the throttle. Otherwise the change is jerky and if you have a pillion, they'll think that you're rough as bags. Changing up is simply a matter of quickly backing off power enough to reduce the load on the drive train, make the change and power on again.

    Or, if you really wanna flog the bags out of it, you run the engine up to the rev limiter, if fitted then as the power cuts out change up while still holding the throttle wide open.
     
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  8. I first found loading the lever a little smoothed out the changes when going up the gears.
    Since then I've also discovered leaving the throttle open just a crack, rather than backing off for changes makes for perfect transitions.

    Hey Big Gav, i haven't been able to access ozblackbird.net for a few days........ has the forum gone under?
    Anyone heard?
     
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  9. "Access forbidden" is what I'm getting.

    Sounds like it's crashed big time. Which is a damn pity, and inconvenient for me, given that I'm having electrical problems at present. There were a couple of threads that I wanted to review. Hopefully it'll be back up soon. It's a good resource for B'Bird owners and those who wished that they owned B'birds, which pretty well sums up the two types of riders in existance...
     
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  10. One of the key things I have found learning the flutchless shift is that is a lot eaisier when you don't have the engine heavaly loaded. so practice on flat or slightly downward sloping road, then work your way up to being able to do them anywhere.
     
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  11. It shouldn't matter whether you're on a hill or whatever. As long as you back off the throttle enough to neutralise the load on the drive train - ie. no engine braking or acceleration.

    For new riders I wouldn't encourage it. Learn proper clutch technique first, particularly for downchanges.

    Watching the GP the other night they had "handlebar cam" on I think it was Hayden's bike. Watching him downchange, he pulls the lever in not even 20mm or so in rapid succession. That's a technique that I've never practised.

    Of course, a GP bike's clutch is nothing like a standard road bike, so its operating characteristics are probably nothing like what we're used to.
     
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  12. A lot of the guys are at cbrxx.com (the new site). I believe the Ozblackbird thing is temporary.
     
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