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LiFePo4 vs. AGM vs. Li Ion Batteries - pros and cons ?

Discussion in 'Riding Gear and Bike Accessories/Parts' at netrider.net.au started by luuki55, Sep 6, 2016.

?
  1. AGM

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. li-Ion

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
  3. LiFePo4

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  1. Hey guys!!

    Iam interested in a new battery for my Yamaha MT07L and i heard some stuff about LiFePo batteries and trends away from AGM technology. For me its about weight reduction but what do you think about the Li Ion and LiFePo batteries ? can somebody recommend any models and what are youre experiences? do they keep their promise with better safety, faster recharge and higher discharge rates ?
    At the moment iam using the OE but iam open for new things and your advice !

    Thanks a lot ride safely!! :cool:


     
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  2. Please take into account that a Lithium needs a special charger (no desulphation mode etc) so factor that into your decision cost wise.

    Also please do a search - I think oldcorollasoldcorollas has quite a few threads on batteries and things to consider

    My $0.02 - well worth it. Huge weight saving, higher capacity than your standard (normally).
     
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  3. Thanks for your fast answer and your advice! the need of a different charger is good to know !!
    i will have a look but i think there is no general discussion about the different technologies and their pros and cons. its very hard to get a overview with all these specific threads...
     
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  4. #4 oldcorollas, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
    a YTZ10S Yuasa AGM for FZ07 weighs 3.2kg
    motobatt AGM MBTZ10S is 2.9kg

    Li type will be around 1kg, so you'll save about 2kg.
    cost of a good quality Li battery? Shorai RRP is US$200 LFX19A4-BS12 (LiFe)
    another big Pro for Li types is they hold higher voltage until nearly discharged

    different charging requirements Difference between SLA and Li battery charging programs (CTEK)

    better safety? why? gel SLA won't leak if busted. Li if damaged can catch fire (but you'd likely be mush with that amount of bike damage anyway)

    do you need faster charge/discharge rates? CCA is not a good way to compare SLA vs Li

    downsides apart from cost? (of battery + charger if needed)
    if you live in cold climate, sometimes you need to turn on your headlight to "wake up" a lithium battery, cos they hate the cold and can't put out current.
    Something like 30seconds to 1 minute of headlight when temps are around 5degC.
    for -10C, that could be 3-4 minutes.

    ideally you want cell balancing circuitry in any Li battery pack. if one cell starts to go bad (or is less happy about charging, it can quickly stuff up.
    maybe not a big deal, but is most likely to be the life-limiting issue.

    Ideally you want a proper Li charger, and definitely don't want to leave an SLA trickle charger on...
    if your rec/reg goes and voltage goes over about 15V, they can go bang/fire (or just die). less than about 13V it won't charge at all.
    if the battery is unbalanced and charger is not smart enough, Li can catch fire. usually happens with lower quality batts or damage

    plenty of discussion around the net of pros and cons, and reviews of different brand batteries.


    anything else on you or the bike that can be lightened for $100/kg? :)
    (granted that's cheaper per kg than most exhaust swaps)
     
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  5. some good discussion here
    Lithium Motorcycle replacement Battery

    AUD RRP for the Shorai is $280 LFX19A4-BS12 | Shorai Power

    and to clarify.. LI-ion have fire issues..
    LiFePo are different chemistry and much less likely to have that kind of issue..

    http://shoraipower.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/SpecsFAQ.pdf

    storage notes:
    Li-types hold their charge much much better than SLA over long periods of time.
    but.. if the real capacity (Ah) of the Li-type is a lot lower, a parasitic drain (dash, immobiliser, alarm etc) can drain them to the point of not starting faster than a larger real Ah capacity SLA. (not an issue of riding regularly or have Li-type charger than can trickle properly, or if you get a larger Li-type with more real capacity)

    also if you fully drain an Li-batt, it may not recover (ie leave lights on) and may be dead, whereas SLA may recover.
     
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  6. Hmm interesting.

    I've never put that much thought in to batteries. When I needed a new battery a couple of weeks ago, I took the existing battery out, went to Battery World and said "I need a battery for a 2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200. Here's the old one". The bloke said "Yep, over here. That'll be $100". We went back to the counter I paid and left with my new battery.
     
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  7. Thanks a lot for your knowledge and great advice! It helped me a lot.

    I think its a very interesting discussion, because the battery is a very important part of every vehicle, especially in times where electronic systems are used more and more also in the 2W sector. The new technologies will get more and more attractive for users and if we are talking about weight reduction, youre definitely right. To loose weight there is nothing better i can do for $100/kg. I will have a look at the LiFePo Batteries and give some feedback here after using it for a while!

    Thanks and ride safely !
     
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  8. Some guys spend thousands of dollars in several titanium parts and ultra light exhaust systems to loose weight for better performance. so its kind of interesting to spend a little more money in a good battery with new technologies and better technical data to loose weight.

    But i know what you mean :D
     
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  9. Cheaper to just lay off the pies for a while and shave some weight off the rider, but if you need a new battery anyway (which I probably will by next winter which is why this thread piqued my interest) then a weight saving wouldn't hurt.
     
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  10. I thought most bikes these days use AGM batteries. I don't see the extra expense of Lion batteries justifies the added advantages they offer. Unless it is a highly tuned racer, used for track work, and you are a highly gifted rider who can take full advantage of the slightly lower weight, I don't see an advantage at all. The stock batteries have been doing their job successfully for years so why waste money on something else which will do it just the same?
     
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  11. And yet some of the guys I've seen who carry on about weight saving could do themselves and their bikes a whole lot of good by dropping 10 or 15kg of body weight. I have to say, the Bandit was a whole lot better after I dropped from 120kg to 95kg.
     
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  12. Youre definitely right and iam with you. but iam 1.83m with 74kg. so there is nothing to loose anymore or ill be no longer able to keep myself on the bike :D
     
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  13. I think my left leg weighs more than you!
     
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  14. Yes they did, but as oldcorollas explained very good there are a lot of different properties which may fit specific requirements of different users in different countries.
     
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  15. My bike is a ... solid lady, and it wouldn't hurt for her to lose a few kgs (wouldn't hurt me either!) but I'm not going to spend a fortune on titanium bits and pieces that don't need to be replaced when a few laps around the block on the ol' LPCs will be more productive.
     
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  16. #16 barry_mcki, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
    Seems to be a bit too much hassle......well for me anyway :)
     
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  17. I don't agree.
     
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  18. To add another dimension - I have a Lithium battery ( SSB PowerSport > Products > Product List ) that does NOT require a special Lithium charger but uses a normal plain Jane car charger (take note a simple charger that does NOT have a desulphation or conditioning cycle).

    Tending to a battery does not need to be a chore, and should not be.
     
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  19. Suppose it's like the old "carb vs FI" arguments, simplicity over technology. For me, I'm an old fart, I remember the days of using a hydrometer to check battery condition, so relenting even to AGM is a major step forward for me from the vented cell days, nothing wrong with a bit of hydrogen in the air to keep you on your toes.

    Hope the Lithiums work out for you in the long run, if not I'm sure the chemists and their accountant friends have something new just waiting in the wings..
     
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  20. to be fair, that's pretty much true of every Li battery, just SSB make a point of it to sell.
    doesn't mean that they can't be charged better with a proper Li charger,but does mean you can still charge with a simple (or sensible) charger.
    all Li motorcycle batts can be charged by normal alternator too.
    does the SSB have circuitry to prevent the trickle charge phase of a normal charger?

    what is the charging rate for the SSB?
    "plain car charger" is usually between about 3.5A and 7A.. making it a 1hr (or 30min) charger for a motorcycle battery. 1C should be ok for them? (none of their technical info on their website works anymore/ever) then again they won't pull more than they can handle (until they melt)

    fwiw, when SSB say Lithium Ion, they actually mean Lithium iron... or do they?
    SSB PowerSport Lithium Ion Phosphate Batteries (also known as Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries)

    because they used to say:
    SSB PowerSport Lithium Batteries are also one of the only Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries that can be charged using normal 12V car battery chargers / alternators.
    and still do on sites that sell them, like bikebiz

    but now their main site says:
    SSB PowerSport Lithium Batteries are also one of the only Lithium Ion Batteries that can be charged using normal 12V car battery chargers / alternators except for CHargers with Automatic Rejuvenation or Desulphation Mode

    they also say: SSB PowerSport Lithium Batteries are also 100% organic (LOLs :p )

    their LiFePO4 battries will have that printed on them, like in this brochure (for their deep cycle batts)
    whereas the Powersport batts just say "lithium"??
    (also says there "Do not exceed 14.6 Volts when charging." that's pretty close to some charging systems (eg 14,35V), so you'd want to make sure your sense wire has no voltage drop :) )
     
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