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Let's talk Texas hold'em Poker.

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by robsalvv, Jun 6, 2012.

  1. I'm a recent convert to Texas Hold'em, and it's captured my imagination. For a game with about 7 rules, the complexity is STAGGERING.

    If you're a player, where do you play? Online, socially, against the computer, tournament etc etc So far, I've mostly been social, knockout style no limit game, all with a fixed starting stack and no rebuy in. It really puts your skills to the test... so far I've been inconsistent middle of the road fodder for the sharks.

    What do you recommend reading? I've got two Doyle Brunson books - I think his first and second - part way through the first, but am on the hunt for some more. They're full on though - a few words can actually cover quite a few deep topics, and everything is said in context of your position, what you know about the players, their previous betting image, your betting image, pot odds, implied odds, expected value etc etc And the lingo... so much lingo. e.g. Double belly buster straight draw...

    Anyway, let's talk poker, strategies, experiences, memorable hands you've played or seen, etc etc.

    Might do us good to think about something other than the hurdles motorcycling is facing.

  2. Here's something that I've taken away from my reading - noobs tend to slow play pocket rockets. This is a bad strategy. Someone start me off, why is it bad strategy?
  3. Because if you're slow-playing, you're more likely to get someone limp in with an average hand.
    And the more cards that hit the table in the flop, turn and river, the more chance someone has of hitting 2-pair and killing your rockets.

    Mrs K and I used to play at various places (pub nights, casino, dedicated venues...) about 5-6 nights a week. I've pretty-much quit because of the aggro, but Mrs K still gets in a couple of games a week. She also travels to Melbourne a couple of times a year for various tournaments and the Millions.
    She's very good and I will ask her for some recommended reading for you - she has all the books...
  4. Becuase pocket rockets can always get u burned if you milk it too much to get the most out of everyone... You wait till the river and someone could catch a triple or flush straight etc etc. there's also betting styles to get out hit and hopers so they don't go fishing and give you a better chance of winning with ya rockets :D.

    I played poker for a few years. Online, at crown casino and in a lot of back sheds and homes for some extra $$. All games I play are no limit. I don't take it too serious tho, it's not my job, I do it more for fun.

    There are heaps of online strategies and tips, a lot of them all cover the stuff, how to read players and read betting styles etc. they are a good read and will improve your game a lot... But like everything.. You will get better the more you play.

    Just don't become the player everyone hates on the table and will just call and call in hopes to catch a card and bad beat people, very frustrating lol.

    Anyhoo, if you have anything to ask I'm always on here trolling through threads lol.

  5. Here's my take on a constant caller. This is someone you want to play simple straight poker with - you know you're going to have a show down, so there's no point bluffing at them. Don't be tricky, don't put a play on them. If you get a good hand, play at them and break them :)

    NK, I'd love a recommended reading list! :) One online place I'm working my way through is pokerbank - they've got lots of guides and a few vids, but Doyle's stuff is much deeper. I've recently spent a bunch of time getting my head around pot odds and independently creating a spreadsheet that replicates all the maths I've been reading about too. Blame it on the engineering brain. :)

    Yep, pocket rockets is the nuts hole card hand. General advice is not to slow play this premium hand, that way you discourage limpers and reduce the field. But there's multiple thoughts on how to play this premium hand in early position:
    = Limp and reraise if someone raises you, or
    = Small raise to thin out the field and then if someone raises you, reraise for value
    = Raise big for value right up front - most hands will fold (unless they fancy their two cards), which makes stealing the blinds odds on. If someone considers that you're trying to steal the blinds and bets at you, then an all in should scare them away, unless they're not good enough to fold a decent hand.

    The size of the reraise is the key decision - probably all in.

    How am I doing?
  6. Some people call all the way to the end, some people call on the deal just to see the flop. Either way, good players should easily make mince meat of them.

    A small bet on rockets is a stupid play principally because it's the worlds easiest tell. As is the re-raise after someone raises you.

    The size of the reraise is the key decision - probably all in.
    I wouldn't principally because at best you want to take someone with you. But only one, more than that and all bets are off as to who has the hand. And ideally, you want the hand to finish by the flop. As for what to bet preflop it depends on how the table is playing, but ideally would be about 5-8x BB assuming your stack allows it.

    Ordinarily I never play with anything less than J10on or Q10off. And even then I would be hesitant with that hand depending on situation.

    Probably biggest point to remember is the sunk cost fallacy. It's never too late to pull out.
  7. Those that limp with unlikely /poor hole cards are really gambling to see whether they might flop a well disguised hand. I've thrown out crap only to see a full house flop, or a flush draw. I remember those, and it makes me wonder sometimes when the blinds are small whether it's worth limping in with trash... but I'm probably forgetting the other 9 out of 10 times where folding garbage was a good call. lol

    How so? How would limping in give anyone any hint?

    Is there ever a time when a small opening raise with a premium hand is a good idea?

    So you'd recommend an opening raise of 8x's BB with a premium hand - isn't that a clear tell??

    One of the rules that Scarne lays out is that once you've bet, the money is no longer yours. It belongs to the pot. Every bet is new and should be treated as such. Don't throw good money after bad!

    One stat that has stuck with me is that in a 9 hand game, the chance that someone is holding at least one Ace is about 80%. And that an Ace with unpaired cards lower than kings will flop about 18% of the time. So basically, if there's an ace on the board and you're not already holding one, then your game pretty much ends right there unless you're drawing.
  8. it's more likely to happen at your mate's on a friday night than it is down at the casino, but it does happen. There are a surprising amount of people who play for luck.

    I don't think there is any good reason to give a small raise. Principally because you don't have any control over the pot when you do this, and it's open to anyone if they want to make their play, you are at their mercy. So instead of having them react to you you are reacting to them. The other problem is a small raise can have many people bite but no one jump at it, so you end up at the flop with a bunch of other hands - somewhere you don't want to be.

    Big raises are not a clear tell if you play it consistently throughout. The primary role is to get rid of riffraff. You don't want someone to call a small bet hoping their ace will hit on flop. You don't want their ace to hit on the flop. Don't give them that opportunity.

    How so? How would limping in give anyone any hint?
    Not limping (calling BB or a small bet), a small bet. As for limping, it can have advantages but only in a heads up scenario, and you absolutely must have the nuts. otherwise you're just playing chances at which point you have already lost.

    The purpose of pre-flop betting is to make sure the guy with A7 doesn't call.
  9. I play on pokerstars once in a while... i've only played live once, and that was in queensland.. and i got soul read on every play by some old geezer, its amazing the differences between online and live.

    its funny you brought up poker, i'm just checking the results from the 2012 wsop today.. see who's winning and who is losing, disappointed phil ivey isn't making a decent run this year. Hopefully he can do well in the main event.

    I've watched poker for a few years, and started playing online at 18.. won a bit lost a bit.. etc etc.

    Its a good strategic game and its really good to watch the pros go at it.. but i couldn't do it for a living.
  10. if you just want to play and get some experience at no cost to your self there is a game app via facebook called Zinger Texas Hold 'Em

    Good way to learn how the game works, the beer is cheaper at home and if you lose all your 'money' you don't lose you house.
  11. Even those 2 hands you mentioned aren't premium hands.. and are easy mucks for me, don't you like to play suited connectors (of the low variety) as well as those premium hands, or even low pairs.. to set mine and possibly outflop a big pair or.. even 2 pair.

    suited connectors are good hands or even non suited connectors.. such as 98,54,67 etc.. because of the good percentage of outs on hitting straights, or flushes, or even straight flushes.. and even if you miss you can put decent pressure on the villain to fold a big pair.. if the board has flushes, straight possibilities etc..

    for example.

    Hero 89 of clubs,

    flop comes.. J 10 7 (with 2 clubs on board) ...

    Villain has J 10 off suit (no club)..

    Hero flopped a straight, and then it runs brick brick.. so no flush possibilities.. no full house possibilities its a good hand because its hidden, villain probably thought hero had AJ or A10.

    never thought hero would have 89 in his range, and you end up winning more often than not, unless they hit a full house or there is a bigger flush on board.. then its an easy fold, you're not going to bet a straight into a board of J 10 7 J 10..

    If you sit there all day and fold hands until you get AA or KK or even 1010.. and then bet ridiculous amounts, you won't get paid off, or you can easily be out flopped.. or out drawn, premium hands don't always win you the big money.

    Phil ivey and phil galfond, and tom dwan etc.. didn't win millions of dollars just by playing premium hands, they play everything, they bluff, they don't fold because the villain bets 10x bb into them.

    Some of the bigger pots i've seen videos of, of especially dwan he bluffed some guy out of a set, with nothing.

    Poker is a good strategic game, but its only something i like playing for fun when i have the money, these people have won/lost millions in a day.. it takes real skill to be able to bluff off a million dollars on a whim.
  12. Yeh they are easy folds, though I just might party them. Rarely play suited connected, to much luck involved for me, though will sometimes do j10.

    in regard to your OP rob, I've seen a royal down on the table, idiots were still betting on it. The one hand that sticks with me though was fairly innocuous. 72 off, on BB. Several players limped in and so flop landed 722. More than tripled up. Was Perry much that hand that taught me not to let anyone limp to the flop.
  13. So Lilley, are you saying that if you like your hole cards, your opening bet is going to be at least 2x's BB? I've come across this strategy in my reading. The author recommended 3.5x's BB as an opening bet. It clears the field. But I figure this is a deep stacked luxury.

    Your 7 2 story is interesting because that's considered to be the worst hole hand in Hold'em poker. If someone doesn't raise then the BB can limp in with this hand, but the likelihood they're going to win is pretty slim. It's no wonder your story is memorable!

    This line of discussion raises an interesting point, suit and non suited cards. You rarely play suited cards, but many do. Does your decision change depending on where you're positioned? What are other folks take on connected cards?
  14. Again, it depends who you are playing with. If they are all tight, you don't need to bet much. These days I play at mates, who for the most part play pretty loose - bet bigger. I'll play really tight, sometimes only play 3 or 4 hands aiming to double up in them, will normally end me in the money.
  15. Mrs K reccommends:

    Doyle Brunson's Super System
    Gus Hansen: Every Hand Revealed
    Barry Greemstein: Ace on the River
    Phil Gordon's Little Green Book (may also be "blue" and "red" versions...)
  16. Woot!! I have the first (and one other of his) and the last (plus 3 others of his) is on it's way already.

    I'll be on the hunt for 2nd and 3rd drops.

    Thanks mate. :)
  17. Okay then, if you sit there and only play premium/semi premium hands, you're going to be labelled a "nit", and when you do pick up those big hands, you're gonna get barely any action, to be a good poker player, you need to be able to play all the weaker hands, and your suited connectors.. to hit the bigger hands.

    AA KK QQ JJ ( jacks are pretty easily cracked) can easily be outdrawn and if you only play those hands, or only pairs or J10 Q10 etc.. you're just going to limit yourself to small pots, unless you get it all in with AA on a dry board.. and the villain doesn't hit his draws/flushes etc..

    You may as well play blackjack.. as i mentioned in my other post, tom dwan,phil ivey,daniel negreanu etc.. are some of the worlds best poker players.. (phil iveys networth is around 100 million, he did have a stake in full tilt poker, before it closed down.. but hes won many millions online and live.. and lost many millions as i said.

    They play crap hands, and suited connectors, and everything, they bluff, they have good reads etc.. and thats why they're successful.

    If you can shove a million dollars into a pot with nothing, and bluff guys off their big hands, its pretty amazing.

    you can't be successful at poker only playing premium hands, its just not possible.

    Speaking of 7 2, in some of the big cash games, they like to play 7 2 and have sidebets.. where if you play 7 2 and win the pot and show it, IE bluff the other guy off of his hand, with pressure.. you win the sidebet.

    its fun to watch when they do this, if you youtube tom dwan... you'll see him play this hand, and win.

    Also @ROB, suited connectors or unsuited connectors, many pro poker players.. and even good amateurs.. play them, because of the good percentages on hitting straights, flushes, straight flushes etc.. its easier to call a 3xbb bet and chase your draws, if the flop comes out in your favour.. if it comes out dry, its easy to throw away the hand and not lose any extra money.

    If you want to be a tight nit style player, thats fine.. but unless you're deepstacked and happy to blind off, and get it all in pre-flop.. with those big hands and hope they hold up, you're not going to win heaps of money.. sure there are professional nits, but they don't get much action, unless someone who doesn't know their style of play, decides to play them.

    Online and live are 2 completely different kettles of fish, as i said.. but if you want to do more research and learn more stuff, head over to "two plus two forums" its the biggest poker forum online, and also checkout "Highstakes DB.com" for online reports, and high stakes reports.. and you'll see how much money is involved with the top level pros and amateurs.
  18. I'm capable of varying my play if I need to.
  19. Noted.
  20. Yeah, you don't wanna stick to one style.. unless it works for you.