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learn from this

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by stu_h, Jun 19, 2010.

  1. The story of a new age potion sales man and his wife.


    "PETER Dingle had a choice when his wife, Pen, finally learned she had rectal cancer.

    Would the professor push her to have the operation that would most probably cure her?

    Or would he keep pushing the mad faith in alternative medicine that has since made him, as he modestly advertises, a "renowned author, juggler, media personality and Murdoch University academic"?

    Ah. Tough choice."
  2. Homeopathy and many alternative medicines can attribute their successes only to the power of the placebo affect.

    If you really believe in a magic pill: you will feel better after taking it.
    Which is why they are very effective at treating stress, certain sleep disorders, and chronic pain.

    Disease is different, as Mr Dingle is finding out so personally.

    I shudder to think how many people have died by taking his advice instead of seeking proper medical attention for serious ailments. Perhaps some of these stories will surface now there is some media attention on him.

    I am sad for his wife and him for the stress they are going through, and the grief they will suffer when mung-beans and trace amounts of arsenic don't help her cancer.

    I will be happy if he is exposed as a fraud and the financial success he enjoys via the hope and denial of sick people is diminished.
  3. Agree 100% , we know the placebo effect works.

    The problem is, if , we support this type of "treatment" knowing the placebo effect is at work , it lends credence to the whole thing..

    it's a slippery slope.
  4. The upshot of most ineffective treatments is that they are also harmless.

    Most doctors will encourage their patients to explore any alternative medicines they are curious about, as long as they are still in a position to monitor, advise and treat any serious issues that their patient is having.

    The lesson is: real doctor always FIRST; witch doctor maybe later.

    I shudder to imagine this hippy-quack telling his friends to give their children some green tea with a lemon infusion, instead of 'seek proper medical attention'.
  5. Definitely a wrong statement there. We have tried (amongst other things like OTC children's pain meds) homeopathic teething relief for our 8 month old daughter this week. She has been utterly screaming the past few nights due to getting 2 teeth within a day or two of each other and each time we have given her the homoepathic teething relief tablet (it actually says it's homoepathic on the bottle) and each time within 30-60 minutes she has stopped said screaming and has most times has been able t get back to sleep. So saying they only attribute their success to placebo is wrong as our 8 month old daughter has no idea she is supposed to be getting pain relief from her teeth coming up which is causing her to scream, which we know as the teeth are coming up and she is obviously being caused discomfort from her teeth/gums by her actions such as 'gumming' with her lips, trying to 'play' with her teeth/gums. She doesn't do this normally and has only done this each time her teeth started to show through her gum and she started the screaming episodes at the same time.
  6. #6 stu_h, Jun 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Bonk is 100% on the money.

    Maybe the placebo effect is working on you ? :)

    I would check the ingredients in this "cure", I would say , either its not "just" homeopthetic but also other ingredients.

    Seriously, Homeopathy, is bullshit.

    The main principle is , "what makes you sick in large quantities, makes you better in small quantities".

    I.e. Homeopathic sleeping pills contain wait for it .... wait for it !!


    Of course other "natural remedy" type products contain all sorts of things, but homeopathy , true to its initial "principles, uses a small qty of "what ails ya".

    Having said that , the qtys are SO SMALL , they could be likened to a single drop of caffeine in the Atlantic ocean.

    In fact you could swallow bottles full of these sleeping aids, the net effect being zero.

    actually here is a video of a young woman doing exactly that
    And loads more people online doing similar, I think I have seen 10 bottles of pills swallowed by one person.

    here is a summary of homeopathy here

    The real question is , we KNOW what causes the teething pain... new teeth, I wonder what the homeopathy people use to cure that ? ground up baby teeth ?


    even this PRO homeopathy site tows the line "law of similars" :

    PS.. not trying to be hard ass, I know how hard a teething baby is to deal with... just sayin..

  7. Heh, I know what the pills contained and that it has caffeine. I check EVERYTHING to see what the active ingredients are before putting it into my body + 'filter' my wife's + child's stuff. (I probably have 30-50 tablets of things I ingest, mainly supplements like spirulina but also have natural pain meds to compliment my oxycontin tabs, DL-phenylalanine)

    But anyway, each time Cassandra had the tablets, she had stopped screaming, which we gave her at random times after her screaming. Initially it probably was 1hr ish? and other times it got shorter and shorter. Each time she stopped screaming and most times was able to go back to sleep within 1/2 hour. I can't see how that was placebo effect on me at all.
  8. "Homeopathy and many alternative medicines can attribute their successes only to the power of the placebo affect."

    having enrolled in natural therapies for a uni degree and then subsequently dropping it later on, there is solid evidence that all the natural medicine gives a small percentage of benefit over the placebo effect.

    most probably contribute to it due to the way the medicine is delivered. there is a doco with richard dawkins (if your an atheist, he is the pin up boy for us, and our god that we worship :)), where he investigates the natural medicines, and finds out that indeed it is the way its delivered, and a host of other factors.

    chinese medicine also has the same and similar field and direction of natural medicine, it doesnt cop the same level of criticisms, and also same level of benefit over the placebo effect.

    the reason why i didnt pursue the natural medicine degree is because i knew after it i would not sell it, got to believe in what you preach
  9. A guy called skinner did an interesting study on pigeons. And the way they became "superstitious" and saw connection where none existed.

    It's a good read.

    People do the same things without realising it.

    Not saying that's the case for you but it is possible that coincidence was involved. As we know homeopathy is (placebo effect aside ). BS.

    Just food for thought is all.

  10. Undii, not discounting completely whatever's in those pills; but kids do pick up on their parents emotions and stress.
    If you and mum suddenly stop worrying, or your daughter's screaming is getting her less attention after she's given the pill; that could well be the reason she calms down.

    Obviously this isn't absolute fact; but neither is 'homeopathic pills are a proven analgaesic'.

    Regardless - if they work and cause no harm: you should obviously keep giving them to her.

    I'm sure people do have more faith in a 'herbal treatment' than a placebo.
    I would definitely wager if you had two separate studies, one to test a "herbal supplement" and one to test a "placebo" against a modern pharmaceutical, the herbal supplement would outperform the placebo slightly - because, of course, some placebos are better than others.
    If it's all in your mind: in your mind a herbal tea is more 'genuine' than a sugar pill.
  11. wager on!

    when do u want to do this? ill have my paypal account set up
  12. You won't be able to win this 'debate' ;) The tablets we've given her (as I said, at various lengths of her "screaming") were given to her by either of us and we leave her in her cot then whomever gave her the tablets would wander back to our bedroom and we'd then hear her calm down within 1/2 hour. Also, I'm definitely not stressed or emotional when it's my turn to give her the tablets as we plan for me to be "good" so I've had my [high] dose of oxycontin before I do anything 'helpful' for Cassandra. Due to any movement of my arm/shoulder (so, basically any type of movement really) causes heaps of pain + physical distress to my injury, I need to make sure I'm on pain meds or else as I test every 2-4 weeks for 1/2 a day, I go totally pain free and each time on those pain med free times, my arm gives me grief.

    The only reason we're using these teething relief tablets is, there is a stupidly high number of mums (and some dads I guess) that use "essentialbaby" website that my wife uses for day to day stuff regarding babies. Pretty similar to how a lot of people use this website for their "electronic motorbike love". Emma read a HEAP of parents have had great success with these tablets in helping out their children in times of teething [related pain].

    I've kind of cursed myself with regards to placebo, for over a decade, I've been thoroughly reading up on making sure I know what goes in my body and that pretty much has killed any chance of placebo working. I curse myself for that now tho, a lot of stuff that I guess relies on placebo, simply does not work on me. Such as "valerian". I'd LOVE any non strong benzodiazepine being able to help me sleep but after 4 years of on and off insomnia, even stuff like valium, mogadon etc, the only thing I've been able to find that helps me sleep [constantly] is xanax 4mg "bricks" which my doctor doesn't want to prescribe to me 'long term' so I have to put up with getting about 1-2 hours sleep per 24 hour cycle on average during my 2-8 week long insomnia cycles. It really sucks nuts not being able to sleep during winter with my pain. I've also found doxylamine works but it leaves me with a 1/2 day "hangover" which I consider worse than not getting actual sleep. Could be worse tho.

    I have come to the conclusion this week, those tablets actually work from the results and it's not down to placebo :) But if it is, well, as long as the active ingredients inside them aren't damaging Cassandra, I'm not complaining but I still think it's not placebo. Homeopathy itself might be a crock of S***, but these tablets do have on the label "Homeopathic tablets" so I call them that ;) They could be wrongly labeled Homeopathic heh
  13. not sure what you are saying. Are you saying herbal things work better coz you think they will work better, or because they actually do work better than placebo's?

    I know of certain herbal combinations that will provide reactions second only to amphetamines and columbian powder.

    undii: have you tried red bull? It will normally put me to sleep within an hour or so.
  14. Whats on the ingredient list for these things?
  15. Figure of speech.

    Out of curiosity, what evidence was there that homeopathy was superior to placebo?

    Or if I may rephrase: in what way did your (not free) university course legitimise itself?

    When I was a baby, and I cried for food or attention, my father would come into the room and offer me water.
    I, too, shutup within half an hour and learnt to sleep through the night.

    Again: clearly something is working for you, so keep doing it - but I would be very reluctant to point the finger 100% at magic tablets.

    If I gave you 2 sugar pills and called them:
    1) Sugar Pill
    2) Ancient Chinese Remedy

    It is my feeling that something called "Ancient Chinese Remedy" would achieve better results than the other placebo, whilst still being a placebo.
  16. righto, so a "herbal supplement" as opposed to a herbal supplement.
  17. This is a very common opinion. Most people know what the placebo effect is but state that they doubt it is affecting them when they do their own observations.

    The placebo effect is much stronger than most imagine, and will inevitably make a huge difference when the observer (e.g. doctor) or the patient is aware of the treatment being given (which is why proper scientific trials are blinded to both observer and patient, at least as much as is feasible).
  18. as an engineer and scientist I can't see how any active substance diluted as far as it is in a homeopathic tratment can possible work. Placebo effect maybe, but actual chemical reaction? no.

    interestingly though, we too used these 'homeopathic' teething crystals on both of our babies. They work. When you look though it says the active ingredient is chamomila. Chamomile as a herb has known anti-inflammatory properties so there is a logic that this would work in teething. I suggest that what we most likely have is a misnaming of these remedies as 'homeopathic' where they should more correctly be called 'natural' or something
  19. #19 stu_h, Jul 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Doctors vote to drop homeopathy on the NHS – and about time


    Dr Tom Dolphin of the BMA’s junior doctors committee described homeopathic remedies as “nonsense on stilts”.

    awesome quote :
    "And really, homeopaths shouldn’t be too disappointed. In fact, they should be grateful. After all, by their own logic, the less funding they get, the more effective it will be."


  20. I hope it's not Hyland's Homeopathic Teething Tablets you're using, because I sure as hell wouldn't be giving my baby anything containing belladonna regardless of how small the concentration is purported to be.