Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

LAM's to the slaughter?

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by incitatus, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. I am in WA, a 'too fiddy' state, where we don't have a LAM's list.

    I just had a look at the NSW LAM's list out of curiosity, and was actually gob-smacked by the total unsuitability of some of these machines for learning .

    A Norton ES2 for Dog's sake! Big, heavy, poor handling, poor braking, difficult to start, and that's just it's good points! We didn't call it the 'Iron Lung' for nothing. There are several other equally unsuitable bikes on the list.

    It seems clear to me that whoever drew up this list had no interest whatsoever in the suitability of the bike for learning, just some horsepower-phobic view of what is, or is not, dangerous. A triumph of authority over intelligence if you ask me.
  2. Given that there's some people out there that probably couldn't be trusted with so much as a postie bike on the roads drawing up a list of "approved" bikes for newbies is always going to be tricky. The power/weight thing seems to make much more sense than a capacity limit which allows for 2-strokes and even turbos (although don't think anyones turbo'ed a 250). Interestingly the problems reversed for p-plate drivers in NSW since they are simply imposing a ban on turbo's and V-8s which ridiculously means that a low-boost Volvo is illegal despite being safe and easy to drive yet a Lotus Elise is fine :shock: . Ironically Victoria is looking at imposing power/weight restrictions on drivers but looks to be keeping the 260cc limit for riders (for now anyway).
  3. NSW's LAMS system apparently has a similar heritage with its newly introduced restricted car list for young drivers. There are vehicles with greater power/weight ratios in their list that are suitable for P platers, than some vehicles with similar specs, but which are banned. Apparently, too, there are more loopholes than the Business Tax Act in it that will allow P platers to drive the "banned" cars, anyway.

    Like motorcycles, the government did little consulting with motoring bodies when its RTA came up with the list.

    And you wonder why they can't organise any real road safety policies - ones that actually work.
  4. Lord only knows the LAMS system isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing.

    My partners GSXR-750 is up on eBay at the moment. Some fool wrote to us asking what the Kw/tonne was. He was looking for a bike for his son, and wanted to know if it was less than 150. Obviously looking for a LAM bike. I went & found the RTA's URL to the LAM's list for him.

    Would you buy your 17 year old son a R1, SP1, GSXR-750/1000? For their FIRST bike??

    I may be on L's myself, but I'm a mature age rider, and have ridden bikes before, although a long time ago. There's no way I'd be jumping on the gixxer and hooning off.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

  5. No I wouldn't. But if you asked me which was a better machine to learn on,

    (a) An RGV250 (Non-LAMS) or,

    (b) A Norton ES2 with kickstart only , manual advance/retard, cable brakes, almost twice the weight of the RGV, and notoriously difficult to start. (LAMS approved)

    I know which one I'd go for.
  6. I think the classic bikes on the list were intended to allow for older people wanting to get back into bikes.

    And shhhh. It's better then a straight 250 system
  7. yeah, i'd go the lams system over the 260cc system in a FLASH :shock:

    i tend to agree with ibast there, how many younguns are going to be buying an old norton to learn on? not many i'd think :LOL:

    they cant go looking at every aspect of the bike to determine whats ok to ride, if they took into account the brakes and ease of starting and size of the sump plug of every bike before deciding, they'd end up with maybe 2 or 3 suitable bikes :LOL:

    most learners will be going for a 250 screamer, a 400-500 commuter, or a 600 chook chaser and will be going for the newest bike they can afford. the nostalgia riders will mostly be ppls that had these bikes when they were young and want to relive that, they already know how to ride and are more likely to ride safely IMO.

    anyways, lams GOOD - 260cc BAD :D
  8. For the lazy, the list of LAMS bikes.

  9. I wasn't proposing that the 250cc limit was preferable to a LAMS list, it's not. I was floating the idea that it might be a good idea to add comments that suggests which bikes on the list may or may not be suitable for an absolute beginner to actually learn on.
  10. okay, thats fine i guess, but it does make things harder when you start imposing millions of little rules for a bike to be allowed.

    they could probably say that anything using drum brakes on the front isn't suitable, but i would think that most ppls would be given that sort of advice anyways. i would think that the amount of 18 year olds riding old, heavy, gutsless bikes with crappy brakes that cost more than newer, faster, lighter bikes with good brakes would be fairly minimal :wink::

    i'd be thinking that is catering for a niche, only the true nostalgics would take advantage of being able to ride these bikes...
  11. Hey, my learner bike's got drums on the front :D And boy, they are soft. But it's an 88 XT250, so I wasn't expecting Ducati-style stopping power, especially since the thing barely makes it over 80km/h.
  12. When some of us started learning that's all there were :LOL:

    If you learn on an ES2 you will probably be a better rider - at least you'd have some mechanical understanding... :LOL: I don't recall it as being heavy but then I only rode one a couple of times 25 years ago :?

    Seriously though - many of the riders on this forum would have no hope riding something like that. How many of them have ever had to use a kickstart even... :LOL:

    If anyone is keen enough to get their hands on any of the older bikes on that list - like a Panther 600 or BSA Goldie then I'd say that they won't be the sort of person who has a problem with it...


    It's interesting that the RD400 Yam is there but the RD350 isn't...
  13. yup, thats kinda what i was trying to say :D if you buy one of these, its for a specific reason, its not gunna be some hothead 18 y/o hoon with a vendetta against speeding laws eh :wink:
  14. Ahem....

    I have to agree that a learner doesn't need to be kicking over a stalled bike on peak hour traffic. There's nothing like lanesplitting to the front and then stalling to really focus your attention. Drivers get...well...fractious about being held up by the bastard that just sailed past them.
  15. I said kickstart - not push start :p :p :p
  16. Yep B , once they'd learnt to handle that , they'd be able to ride any bike,

    I'm all for all new riders to have pre 80's bikes to learn on. So they learn, cornering, and breaking and gear changes. Then they can have a bike that does everything for you, bit like Automatic cars. Just like a truck license, if you have a truck license ,you can legally drive a car.

    Anyone who learns to ride on a bike built in after 1990, should only ever be able to ride 250's :evil:
  17. What an atrocious opinion.
  18. Trolled beautifully... :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
  19. The LAM's sytem should be commended, although it is downright wrong that there is not a national model for each state to follow. Currently, no two states/territories have the same licensing laws (that goes for cars to). That is disgusting.

    Sure, the system has its flaws, but overall it is much better and more appropriate than imposing a capacity limit, forcing learners to buy 250's at hugely inflated prices (especially imports). I believe that larger capacity bikes (not quicker!) can teach beginners much more valuable clutch control, etc, skills.

    There's a turbo intercooled fzx250 zeal in Sydney, it featured in an early edition of Rapid bike mag, and I'm sure you're aware of the plentiful off-the-shelf kits available in Japan for 250's....
  20. agreed mouth.

    why put somebody on a killing machine when they don't have a clue... how about giving them a clue with these newfangled post 1990s machines and then giving them a scare with those old machines...
    perhaps you've forgotton what it is like learning to ride. I had enough trouble turnig nmy brand new bike, I nearly decked it a few times not understanding how the whole 'riding' thing works i definitely would have if the handling had been worse... saved a lot of pain & injury by a better bike

    my grandfather used to have the same opinion about deoderant. "they didn't need it back in my day, so why do I need it now?"
    simple answer... you stink. :LOL: :LOL: