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Discussion in 'The Pub' started by Sheeth, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. #1 Sheeth, Mar 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Who elce here as Strong opinions of this 'Nation state?'

    Ive spent nearly 4 years since the Lebenon 'war' reserching this area of the middle east and the resulting change, and conflict brought apon by this Tiny nucular armed world superpower.

    They have the world record for braking Interational Laws, Treatys and resolutions. Yet there Properganda Machine and of course the always pressend Jewish lobby quickly alter media Bias and government policy.

    Anyway ill chuck some videos up if anyones interested. I just really feel like a need to vent thats all! I hope theres some cats out here who have opinions (whatever they are) on the issue too.





  2. I believe in free speech and thought - respect your opinion and will fight to protect your right to say it even if I disagree with it

    but my friend be careful because you are bordering on what some self righteous do gooder will call a hate crime

    and no I am not offended at all and I am not part of that nation -- I do however study similar things but due to the reason I mentioned I will not voice my opinion as I do not wish to go to gaol

    I will say this however -- do not confuse a nation with a small group of extremists in control

    PS -- read up on the USS Liberty
  3. That conflict will always be there and there will always be deaths and fighting etc till the day of judgement.
  4. Resmen is correct; while ever two half brothers fight over their father's inheritance there will be conflict, and it will remain unresolved. Activating about whatever grievance you might have against Israel will achieve precisely nothing.
  5. I have more important things to worry about than some medieval conflict happening between 2 peoples divided by nothing more than a difference of opinion in religion.
  6. I have alot of jewish friends and some have lived in Israel. Most just want an end to the violence and they severely disagree with governmental policy.

    However, it is a tiny nation who has displaced and killed many of its previous inhabitants and it is surrounded by nations who do not accept its legitimacy as a nation state. It is a melting pot for injustice and human rights violations.

    There is no way anyone who has studied the region can morally justify what that particular state has done but when we spout our fevered arguments we have to remember that a government doesn't necessarily have to mirror its population's views.

    That piece of land is fought over due to a handful of extremists.

    The oddest thing about the whole thing is if the religion didn't exist, israeli as a nationality would not either because it was the distinguishing feature of the people in the past. Judiaism is from what I remember the last nationalised religion. If we look at ancient religions, there are always ties of certain gods with certain villages and towns and in the case of judaism it has "the promised land". Religions today have changed and don't focus on being localised deities... I think the jewish god has the ability to be localised and still be able to attract followers who don't live in the particular region... Perhaps because the jewish people identified with being roamers seeking a piece of land opposed to people who owned a piece of land and claiming that their deity protected it.
  7. It's hard to know where (or IF) to start on that deluge of innacuracies and assumptions, N4RS.

    Judaism is the religion of people who are Jews by RACE, not by religious choice. A Gentile can embrace Judaism as a religion, but can never be a Jew, because being a Jew is a matter of birth. The religion of the Jews was given by God, and marked the FIRST monotheistic religion in the world's history. Your assertion The oddest thing about the whole thing is if the religion didn't exist, israeli as a nationality would not either is not only precisely the opposite of the actual situation, but the standard argument of anti-Semitism around the world.

    Further, whether the majority of the present occupants of Israel are religious or not (and most of them aren't) it is not a 'handful of extremists' who hold onto the land and fight for it, but all Jews. Equally, it is not a 'handful' of exxtremists who seek to dispossess the Jews from their land, but around 400 millions in the Arab states, as has been seen in three wars in the last 40 years.
  8. Hornet you are right in above.
  9. I am amazed by what Israel gets away with sometimes. I opinion it is because they are just another American state.

    And Hornet, you are right about the two brothers thing. It's why I think the two-state solution will always result in conflict. Make them live together and give everyone equal voting rights. Then no-one can claim they have been kicked out and people will be reluctant to shit in their own nest.
  10. Has anyone here ever been over there before???
    I have.
    I traveled around in a group from Australia, and met up with Israeli's, Arab's and Christians.
    Seeth- I went into a small Jewish settlement, and a friend from our group stayed in a motel down the street, and the block got a hit indirectly from 2 Rockets. You will see the same grief, political mess and innocence loss of life on BOTH sides.
    The videos shown don't mean much as anyone can find clips of both sides showing anger and violence.
    This is by far a one sided story. Both peoples have a very long history in the area and the destruction of things are long from over.

    What you don't hear in the media, is how when I went from major cities to small settlements, there are some people who ignore the politics and live together.
    I saw a young religious Jew help an older Palestinian woman with her shopping. They were neighbors.
    An Arabic man let me off a few Shekel (the currency there) because I didn't have the right change for the taxi.
  11. Contrary to popular opinion, there have been long periods of peaceful co-existence in the land currently known as Israel, but interspersed with bouts of bitter violence. We are in one of those at the moment, largely due to events 60-odd years ago.

    IMO that will continue as long as extremists from both sides get away with assassinating every leader that genuinely works for a solution. I agree with motolegion that leaderships seem to represent the extremes. There are enough good people on both sides to prevail eventually, but who knows how long it will take. It's easy to manipulate emotions when people are dying.

    Oh, and for those who care to know it, the first monotheistic religion in the region was Zoroastrianism, which still exists and traces it's origins back far earlier (again, if one chooses to believe it.)
  12. I am going to start by being clear.
    I have nothing against Jews. But I abhor Zionists.
    Some interesting facts about the politics of Israel, that always have to be considered include.
    It can’t just be a militant few that have caused the conflict, because elections are won or lost on policies of Gaza and West Bank settlements.
    It can’t be entirely about religion either, as Arabic Jews, are treated like second class citizens, while European Jews who often have tenuous links to the Jewish blood lines (And they have money) control the country.
    Let us also be clear that in Israel there have been countless cases where Jews have moved into the houses of Arabs, dispossessing the owners (They hold the land title within Israel) and the Israeli courts have supported the Jews. This is the equivalent of a Bunch of White Anglo-Saxon Christians, Taking over Houses in Caulfield and our Courts supporting them.
    This is not about religion, this is about racism and power. And it definitely has no place in any legal society.
    And as has been pointed out, the world just sits back and accepts the propaganda
  13. On the subject of Israel itself? More trouble than they're worth. "Friendship" with them costs US (and other) taxpayers billions and billions of dollars every year, it gets us attacked, and it has no real benefits. Would you keep being friends with someone who only wanted your money, and by virtue of supporting said friend, you get punched in the nuts every so often? Most people would tell this "Friend" to go jump up his own ass. It's time to do that with Israel.

    As for the region: When I was a kid and my brother and I would fight over the Nintendo, my parents would say "Work it out or we're gonna take it away".

    Time for the world to do the same thing:

    US, UK, Russia, China, and every other country that's significant on the world scale need to say "Work it the **** out by 1 August (or whatever), or we're gonna take away what you're fighting over"

    If both sides work it out and stop acting like primadonna bitches, great.

    If they don't, give them a 30-day notice to clear the area, and then salt the earth with cobalt-jacketed nuclear weapons.
  14. Do we really want to treat these powers as some world authority?

    They will certainly interfere as long as it coincides with their own interests, but not for any humanitarian interests.

  15. Out of all the posts so far mate, this rings true with me the strongest. Your opinions locks strate into my thinking.

    Theres so much discussion here i dont know where to start!
  16. having Israeli family they see it as very one sided. and whenever I bring up the possibility that theres 2 sites and your probably both as bad as each other it doesn't go down well.
  17. So how old is Judaism exactly???
  18. This is true however, I would argue that a gentile jew 1000 years ago will have his descendants today consider themselves full-fledged jews. You are basing your argument on doctrine. Human's in a particular region without the aid of writing are unlikely to have kept brilliant records, thus the growth of the religion whilst more limited than modern christianity or islam would still have seen growth in a manner other than just birthright.... However, thats another line of argument altogether. My point was that alongside the birth of judaism, there was the birth of a jewish person as a particular race... despite this particular race taking on the same characteristics as the local population (go figure ey if its all through birthright). Lets not forget that the religion is passed on by the mother so if the father was a gentile, the children were jewish. Thus we have a race being borne out of both doctrine and genetics however, I am arguing that its birth is that of doctrine. We are touching on the topic of what makes a race. We may need a definition of race to carry through with this line of argument.

    Me using the argument does not make me an anti-semite. Don't try to sneak in an ad-hominem.

    You are suggesting that every arab in the region shouts for israel's blood. Anti-semetism in the region grows out of propaganda. If the uneducated weren't spouted to about israel's war crimes there would be much less ammunition for aljazeera's propaganda.
  19. Shithouse situation. But Israel operations, at least in the last 15 years or so, have pretty much all been retalitory. At least they do not go out of their way to target civilians as the Palestinians do - on a broad scale at least.

    I hope this thread doesn't go down the 1000 year old backstory bullshit. That's always boring.

  20. You'd be surprised mate. The middle east is a comlicated mess to sat the least. And most of the infighting and conflict between them is centered on Israel.

    All the people of the countrys that have felt the iron fist of Israeli bombs, ocupation, assasinations, even Mossad sponsered car bombs have a deep seeded resentment for israel.

    Lets not forget how Israel conducts a war. By distroying the Infestructure and transport systems of a county. In the 2006 'war' with Lebenon they Bombed ever major bridge, and used illegal cluster bombs on there airport. What does this achieve? Well, it creates some long seaded hatered.

    I could go on forever.