Separate names with a comma.
Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.
Discussion in 'General Motorcycling Discussion' started by matlennon, Oct 25, 2011.
Further to an ongoing netrider debate.
Is ABS worthy of being labelled a safety feature?
I haven't voted, but what I'll say is that any saftey feature on any vehicle only increases saftey if the person using it hasn't turned their brain off when the get in/on the vehicle.
Ive delibarately left off the fence sitting option because it makes people think about it. Otherwise we would see 90% of votes as unsure and 5% either way. You either think it is or it isnt. Im talking about ABS systems and how they perform. Nothing more complicated or sinister.
Im not keen on arguing, more interested on gathering facts from the end users.
End users are an awful source for facts.
What you'll get is opinions.
And the're a quote about opinions and assholes out there that's pretty relevant :busting:
From a recent edition of rapid:
Bosch certainly have some impressive videos out there showing ABS bikes pulling stoppies in the wet, on cobblestones etc
I believe they actually had to dial down the threshold on the ABS for the Diavels because it was pulling 1.1g on decelleration and riders were worried about going over the front.
Sure that's all achievable on normal brakes. But how many of us have the confidence to try it in the real world?
I'm sold on ABS. But I'm against mandatory ABS.
I think in some conditions it would definitely be a safety feature. Having done some work on skid pans with ABS on and off, there is no doubt that ABS improves braking distance substantially. That said, its still not a substitute for common sense but on the odd occasion that a person needs it, it may be the difference between life and death.
I voted yes, as I think it is overall for an average rider. It might be more dangerous in certain circumstances but overall it is better.
I think to answer the question you need to assume that all other variables are the same, so whilst rider attitude and awareness is crucial if we assume that the same rider has the same attitude and the same awareness, then we can ask are they better off with or without ABS.
Note, neither of my bikes have it.
Substitute "facts" with the word opinion and we're of a like mind.
Anyway, I'm gonna :-$
The world is complicated, mate. Only bureaucrats imagine it is simple.
Voted yes, but with a huge proviso - on balance, it's an advantage only if the rider also learns proper braking skills and the range of related skills that usually come with it.
If the end result of ABS is any less training or practice, then it would be a no.
I don't think the problem is the potential for less training or practice, the potential problem is the mind set of the person on the bike.
It's the ATGATT vs ATGNFI type argument. Some people believe that because they are wearing all the gear they are safe. Where as others know that wearing all gear merely helps to minimise the damage done if they do fall off.
Well end user opinions is what we are basing out presumptions so it seems to fair to actually gather the opinions of the end users. I dont think it would be possible to gather opinions as to whether end users believe they will be lazier riders with the addition of ABS as laziness is a result of subconscious decisions.
Maybe my statement in the other thread is more relevant in this one.
Here's an example:
The ABS sensor on my car is currently playing up.
Under light braking at lowish speed it's engaging the ABS... and not Gently.
There's a noticable surging as the brakes are applied and released.
in a car.. that's a minor annoyance I need to have fixed.
On a bike, while cornering that sort of thing could be very dangerous.
I think ABS is a positive step for safety for many riders. But there are definitely other issues that ABS brings to the table
It will enable a beginner to grab a hand full of front brake and leave it at that. And believe me they will. Most riders do, not just noobs.
And that's not good braking.
For ABS to be truly affective. As in brake to the tyres limits and not lock it needs a small booster behind it. Well for mine anyway.
The reason we squeeze the front brake lever and keep slowly squeezing, is that we don't have a power braking system like cars.
If your new to riding and smart you would have it. It will stop your biggest mistake in a panic situation. I don't think you can really give a good argument against that.
If your not passionate about your riding, if you just want to hit the hills and cafes then it's a great thing.
The negative is that it will take some incentive to become a better rider away. It will bestow over confidence in the inexperienced. That can be a very bad thing.
From reading these forums I have seen that the noobs mostly do want to become better riders.
So maybe it is me and I need to have more faith in my fellow man. lol Now that's a given
I think it is safer because it takes out one more thing that is easy to f*ck up. How often do the people against it ride on cobblestones, gravel driveways, etc? How often do you practice e-braking in those conditions? How often do you practice e-braking in the rain?
Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding on the difference between motorbike ABS and car ABS is that motorbike ABS doesn't surge whilst car ABS has an on off style braking. This would mean that the 'pulsing' felt by DamoSV wouldn't be present on a motorcycle even if the sensor is playing up. Saying that, if the sensor was playing up and it did engage mid corner then that could be an issue.
Mine has ABS (My first ever bike) and its only kicked in once or twice. Having it drilled in my head on my tests I feel that I wouldn't have needed it and been able to control the bike with out it, but knowing it is there is always nice. I'll be riding my brothers bike on Thursday, same model as mine just no ABS and will see if anything happens. (Not through trying, so hope nothing does)
Having said that, I hope it doesn't become a mandatory thing, id prefer to rely on myself than technology so I don't fall back to the knowledge of "its there so its okay:
Also just saw this emoticon...WTF :busting:
Im not sure i understand. The system is clearly broken so you stop riding and get it fixed. Thats not a problem with ABS as a whole. The same could be said for a loose axle. You feel it wobble and its unsafe so clearly axles are at fault. Or any faulty component in a motorcycle/car.
When was the last time I locked up the front and fell over? loose gravel, low speed in a carpark, Would ABS have stopped that happening?
Guess how I found it was faulty? - When it first acted up.
So by the time you know it's broken, you may have already eaten bitumen.
And sure mechanical malfunction isn't a problem specific to ABS. But brake malfunctions are more serious than most other malfunctions.
Like I said earlier - I'm in favour of ABS. But you asked for examples of issues. I gave you one. Saying "But other components could have those issues too" Doesn't invalidate it as a problem with ABS systems.
I can currently rely on my brakes not to suddely release and re-apply themselves.
Adding ABS creates a situation where that may not be the case. It's not terribly likely but it's there.