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Insulation Rebate - Setting the record straight

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by conspiracytheorist, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. OK, time to blow off some steam . I'm SICK of the media and political bullSHIT that is being thrown around at the moment.

    Who is at fault for the apparent failure of the program?

    Is it the minister, who instituted guidelines that are actually FAR STRICTER than for if you were to have your home insulated normally, if the rebate wasn't there?

    Or perhaps the installers who knowingly ignore the guidelines and come up with new and creative ways to bypass guidelines, commit fraud repeatedly, falsify documents and details, dont do the work correctly (or at all) and intentionally rip off the government whilst being criminally negligent, breaking into homes to do the work, etc.

    Or, maybe (heaven forbid) some responsibility lies with the PUBLIC. People who sign anything thats thrown at them when a stranger at the door shows them a contract and asks them to sign, or relies entirely on the advice of a SALESPERSON instead of lifting the phone or going online to find out more information before they sign a legal document without finding out their obligations or any details about the program.

    I'm so over the lack of common sense that surrounds this program. At least one installer has died as the result of installing insulation. I know I'm being harsh here, but if you are so braindead that you can't figure out that putting metal staples into metal (foil) insulation over live metal wires is a bad idea, if you die then thats called natural selection. Training be damned, thats just plain common sense.

    The minister has copped so much flack over this issue and in reality its political ammunication. As I've already said, the guidelines are stricter and more intense than insulation standards, its not a matter of the guidelines, training requirements, etc. being there - because they are in place. I'm not saying the government couldn't have taken more steps to improve the program, but sick of this issue being blamed on the program creators.

    If people had some fkn common sense and decency this $hit wouldn't have happened. I guess thats too much to ask for you, when its free to them they take no personal responsibility, but of course they have no problems complaining later on..

  2. Vic did it.
  3. Just one (unloaded) question; was there any regime to check that standards were being upheld? I wouldn't expect every job to be government certified, but it wouldn't have been unreasonable for inspectors or suitable qualified surveyors to have been doing some spot checks.
    Clearly some operators have been at fault, but would they have eventually have been weeded out?
  4. Correct, there is an auditing process by independant fully qualified experts. Completely random selection basis - for the purposes you describe.

    This process leads to the deregistration of installers doing the incorrect thing. With over a million homes insulated through this rebate, you can imagine how big of a task it is to inspect these homes though, so its only possible to inspection a relatively small % of these homes.

    I should point out my intention of posting this is to give people a different perspective other than the slanted journalism that is present in the media. Don't accept their spin-mongering.
  5. No area of politics has been particularly good, in recent years, at practising ministerial accountability. As long as ministers of the Crown do not take responsibility for the department to which they are allocated, and the actions of that department and its functionaries, this sort of stuff will only get worse. When a report on a programme is comissioned, at tax-payers' expense, only to sit on someone's table for over 8 months, something is wrong somewhere...
  6. The issue I have with the Minister is the failure to accept or even read the feedback on the system he set up. Sure, he implemented strict guidelines - but why did it take him almost a year to read reports from subject matter experts that all the shonky stuff was going on?

    I'm not trying to absolve the dodgy installers, the corrupt importers of faulty batts, or the brain-dead greater public, but if the Government offers essentially free money, of course that's going to bring the lowlife of society out!
  7. nevermind it would of been a career public servant, who developed and implemented this, not that certain minister. People carry on like he did all the work himself, when in reality it is an Idea formulated by probably a small group of individuals, and done in his name potentially with little or no input from said polly-wants-a-cracker, other than "we need something like this"....
  8. Harry S Truman used to have a sign on his desk that said, "The buck stops here." Our own politicians would do well to try and emulate him.
  9. im still pissed about eastlink.... and my $50 bike levvy.

    i often wonder if its the media or politics behind blowing up stories like this or "childeren overboard" or "indian bashings" or "alcahol related violence"

    cause is does niceley at distracting the general masses from the latest govt ****up or sneaky bill passing

    seriously police have the power to body search anyone and everyone at randomly designated areas without suspicion or likely cause. Who honestly cares about insulation more than the loss of another one of our personal liberties? but 6 year old srilankens on a rooftop makes better TV
  10. we will be paying for this and our kids will be paying for this, thats the part that pisses me off, i refused to get it as they kept saying its FREE, its not fukn free, bloods boiling, ill stop rant here
  11. If those 6 year olds were employed as insulation installers then there wouldn't be a problem............ oh wait....8-[
  12. damn those 6 year old immagrants coming in here, taking all our kids jobs.

    my 6 year old has been unemployed for 3 years and all his jobs are being outsourced to india. a somalian cleaned his room last week for an orange peel...
  13. There have been adjustments/updates to the program almost every single week since they were started up. It has gone through several different major stages throughout its span, directly as a result of feedback, complaints, auditing and industry advise - each update approaching specific problems as they came up. Really, the programs are highly responsive to the problems that came up. Sadly installers also met each update with their own creative means to ignore procedure, take shortcuts, commit fraud in new and interesting ways, etc.
  14. Is Garrett giving you free Oils tickets Phizog?
  15. And you know this how?
  16. The Liberals are really going after his scalp at the moment. Dunno why, as far as their cause is concerned he'd be far better left in there.

    Interesting defence of a minister/policy that most others regard as a bit of a failure.
  17. Look at the whole picture, it's not just about the unfortunate deaths of the installers, it's also about the unskilled/untrained workmanship, the ripping off customers, the gaining of rebates by falsifying documents... somebody is responsible and as the minister the buck stops with Peter Garrett (also known as the minister for procrastination over his failure to keep his promises on the whaling issue) he has proven once again that you don't have to be good at your job to be a polly, and even when you phug it up you still get to walk away with a pension...
  18. Very easy to say someone should have 'done it better', or 'put measures in place to stop these things', etc. without actually knowing how the whole thing works. When people complain about the rebate and make suggestions for things that should have been put in place, they realise these are actually put in place, but the dodgy installers commit fraud, dont leave details, commit crimes, etc. to bypass the guidelines. And then it comes down to enforcement, how does the government make sure every individual on site, doing the work is doing the right thing? ID badges? Easily faked (and have been, even though theres no requirement for them).

    Any idea you can think of to stop the abuse of the program is either not feasible or can be bypassed if you're prepared to commit fraud/ignore laws. This is the issue that the continual updates to the program have tried to deal with, but the continued criminal behaviour keeps adapting.

    I'm neither for against the program or the minister, but wanted to get across the point that its unfair to use any individual as a scape goat given the circumstances

    Cejay, unfortunately I can't really comment on how I know all this. Its all publically available information anyway, but just covering my ass..
  19. All right Phiz, I keep changing my mind about this but a different slant for arguments sake.......

    Say that the minister relies on his department to provide him with the nuts and bolts of the scheme's roll-out and implementation. Say that it's impossible for him to read and be on top of every single report/opinion on the matter so he correctly depends on the "expert" opinions given to him. Say that he genuinely kept up to date with the information as it came in and that he responded appropriately at each step. Then theoretically he's in the clear.

    But my main gripe is the lack of vision in announcing this scheme. Everyone knows that the construction industry is one of the most regulated, has sometimes ridiculous redundancies built into projects and is heavily scrutinised by unions, work cover and other industry watchdogs. Now this isn't strictly construction but it's within the scope of the building industry.

    So why unleash a potentially unskilled mass of operators onto an unsuspecting public in the first place?

    Surely after the first couple of weeks/months the size of the uptake and the inability in policing the scheme would have called for a moratorium and a rethink?

    I think they (the Labour Government) picked the wrong mark for this sort of spending and I reckon the minister has to go.