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ICV electric motorcycle cost to engineer and register?

Discussion in 'Modifications and Projects' at netrider.net.au started by Donmotorcyclemaniac, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. Hello, I am costing an electric motorcycle project (scratch built frame) to be engineered and registered in NSW.

    What does engineer and registration cost?



    What information do I need to provide to the engineer for him to approve the design?

    What are the minimum design requirements, frame strength, suspension, steering, components etc?

    Do I only need to satisfy the relevant ADR for motorcycle or is there a secret list of requirements?

    If this is not the right place does anyone know where I can find this information free of charge?

    What else do I need to know?
     
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  2. Firstly, I admire your guts. :)

    Have a read at Modified and non-standard vehicles

    I think you may well have to contact one or more of the "known" engineers to check they are authorised to approve a motorbike.

    I expect you'd have to discuss your plans with one of these people before you even start.

    As for getting something "free of charge"......<cough> This is New South Wales.
     
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  3. THIS PDF gives a list of NSW authorised certifying engineers and the vehicles or parts of vehicles they can work on, frames etc is MC5
     
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  4. Hello, I am costing an electric motorcycle project (scratch built frame) to be engineered and registered in NSW.
    What does engineer and registration cost?

    depends on the engineer, and how many hours they have to put into it

    What information do I need to provide to the engineer for him to approve the design?

    depends on the engineer, but generally enough for them to be able to do the calculations to show the design is ok. you should start by selecting engineer, and work with them through the design, unless you are yourself qualified or able to do the calcs.

    What are the minimum design requirements, frame strength, suspension, steering, components etc?

    grey area. sufficient... as an ICV, the actual numbers may be kind of arbitrary + safety factor, and totally up to the engineer, not ADR's etc

    Do I only need to satisfy the relevant ADR for motorcycle or is there a secret list of requirements?

    ADR's are a minimum. as an ICV, you need to meet current ADR's,and also prove the design is strong enough, will not handle badly, and will steer and stop ok.. the "secret" bit is what the engineer takes on as risk for approving your design, so in a way, totally up to them and their experience/reputation/liability

    If this is not the right place does anyone know where I can find this information free of charge?

    really your best option is to kind of interview a couple of engineers.. maybe sling them $50 or similar for their time, sit down with them for half an hour and detail what you want to achieve, and see if they are willing and able to go on the journey with you


    gotta ask though, why not use a commercially available frame to start with?
    edit: the less the engineer has to do, the cheaper it will be :) better to find one that will have a bit of faith in your abilities from the start.
     
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  5. Thanks for the replies.

    I think I have got a good idea of what I must do.

    I wish I had an example of a design with all the stress analysis done for me to see what is needed in my design report.

    The reason existing frames won't work is that they are heavy, bulky and inefficient. Efficiency is important when you are using batteries. More efficient means less batteries, less weight, less cost and better performance.
     
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  6. There are frames and there are frames........

    Yeah, taking a full dresser Goldwing and converting it to electric might well be a bit of a challenge, although it comes with lots of space to store batteries. ;-)

    But, if you look at small capacity sports/race bikes, they aren't that heavy, lots of the tricky work has been done by folk (and computers) to design in the appropriate strength and handling capabilities, and it would simplify your project down to removing engine/transmission, fitting electric motor and batteries, and working out a control system.

    As I said before, I admire your intent, but, as a first approximation, I'd suggest that you might want to try and simplify your first effort.... assuming it is your first effort.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. At the minimum, you could look for an efficiently designed bike whose engine/box is approx the same weight as the batteries and motor you intend to use

    Or, go first principles the other way and calculate the road forces the bike will have to withstand?
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Find out what drawing types can be imported into the stress anaylsis software being used before you draw it.
     
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    • Like Like x 1
  9. fwiw, registration will cost the same as normally registering an electric motorcycle, although I'm not sure how they charge for capacity.
    greenslip and insurance may be interesting, and you may need to negotiate with a specialist insurer

    engineering cost.. for an ICV car it varies a lot, but for kit cars you'd expect to pay $5-10,000. cheaper for those that have already been complied and shown to meet spec.
    even for moderate mods, you wouldn't expect an engineer to sign off for less than a grand or so + testing costs.

    ask around some of the chopper/Harley builders.. there is a logn history with that style of frame and what is required..
    then remember you are starting from scratch and building lightweight, ie reduced safety factor. would have to be a couple of grand at least for a scratch built IVC bike?

    last year you were looking for a cheaper alternative than a CT110 postie for transport... ICV bike is not a cheap exercise, nor is electric.. check out some of the commercially available electric bikes and their cost
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. My design is fundamentally different from current motorcycle frames, so they won't be compatible.

    Engineers are not being transparent with their requirements so I do not trust them.

    Once I have completed my design I will then seek approval. I must limit the engineers options to bleed me dry.

    It won't be cheap but I think it is important to do things better than what has been done before. Being complacent is boring.
     
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  11. granted, but an existing frame weighs what, 50kg? I'd be surprised if you could shave more than a few kg off that even if you used the battery as a structural component. Bike manufacturers don't add weight for the fun of it.
     
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  12. Just a thought.
    You have to get an engineer onside, and willing to approve your design. full stop, no alternative.

    None of them have any obligation to take on work from you and approve your work, and if you don't engage them from the very start, it will cost a lot more.
    It will cost more because rather than them doing some calculations and guiding you through the process from the start, they will have to go backwards through your design and verify that each choice of material, design and construction is ok.
    If anything is not ok, they can tell you to make major changes, or just flat out refuse to approve your work. I suspect the latter will occur.

    sort of like when backyard electricians and plumbers call in a licenced tradie to approve their work..

    An engineer has to put a lot of trust in you, because it is their reputation, licence and liability insurance on the line every time to approve someones project.
    if you don't trust them, how can they trust you?

    I suspect they are not being transparent because very few of the engineering signatories, if any, are capable of designing a full motorcycle or vehicle from scratch. at least to the degree of functionality they would be happy with.

    IF your design is fundamentally different from current or previous frames.. you HAVE to prove it is suitable, and it is not a straightforward process.
    are you familiar with the ADAMS suite of software? usually it is for 4 wheel vehicles, but there are motorcycle interfaces that operate within the ADAMS environment,
    eg VI-grade - VI-Motorcycle
    VI-grade - Motorcycle
     
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  13. on a 9kg bicycle, the frame may weigh about 1-1.5kg or so.. it's all the extra bits that add weight, the frame is a small propotion.
    the ratio may be different with motorcycles..

    some internet snippets:

    My RG250 chassis with wheels, tyres, brakes, suspension and chain weighs about 61 kgs.

    The frame (not including tires, seat or handle bars) on the Zero Cycle S is something like 18lbs

    My 1986 Honda VFR700F complete rolling chassis (wheels, tires, frame, suspension, fiberglass fairings and seat) weigh approx 150lbs (~68kg)

    GSXR-1000 frame only 25lbs... (so maybe the ratio from frame only, is not that different between motorcycles and bicycles, 12kg for a litre bike frame is not much at all)
     
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  14. Donmotorcyclemaniac: "Once I have completed my design I will then seek approval. I must limit the engineers options to bleed me dry."

    This is exactly how they will bleed you dry. They know the rules. The rules are inviolable. They are the rules of physics with an ADR compliance overlay

    Oldcorrollas has made a lot of good points. CrazyCam has pointed you in the right direction.

    Please let us know how you go.
     
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