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How important is Rider Training/Education?

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' at netrider.net.au started by jdkarmch, Dec 19, 2006.

?
  1. Absolutely unnecessary - let riders learn by experience

    100.0%
  2. Makes riders overconfident

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Not Important

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Important

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Very Important

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Critical

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. I have it on good authority that Vic Roads are "anti Rider Training/Education".

    Their reasoning is that training riders will cause people to ride more often and hence increase "exposure" which will lead to more accidents.

    What is your view? Are they right or wrong? How important is Rider Training? More importantly - what format should Rider Training really take?



    Vic Roads prevailing view that I think they base their assumption on is that training riders in cornering techniques etc is the basis of the problem, that may create overconfident riders.

    If you have attended a Rider Training couse, what has been your experience since having completed that course? At what point in your riding career did you complete the course? How may spills have you had before completing a Rider Traing course vs after completing a course?

    If you have never competed a Rider Training course - tell us about your experiences to date and when, if ever, you have had any "offs".
     
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  2. Good question and yes I beleive that Victoria along with QLD actually want to discourage motorcylists as we are a burden on the health care system, FFS I stopped smoking so I could afford to buy a bike.

    I have been riding for 10 months now and have covered 22,000kms in all kinds of weather. Most of this riding has been commuting in heavy traffic and along the freeway. I have experienced all types of weather and traffic conditions. I don't know if a course in cornering would have helped me, probably not but doing the ride safe CD ROM course was great. It's not how well i can corner etc that keeps me safe on the roads it's my ability to judge and anticipate issues that may pop up.

    I will do a cornering course [california superbike] or similair one day so I can cover the Spur in a smooth and "quick" run but in my opinion experience and knowledge are the keys to safe riding. maybe a defensice riding course would be great, I would do that now and maybe should be part of the P's test regime.

    So in the end practice riding [not just when it is sunny], talk to other riders, read books and subscribe to netrider and hopefully you will come out OK. :cool:


    Oh and no offs, couple of close ones.
     
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  3. This is a good start - so is the best form of Rider Training - to do just this, talk to other riders, read books, complete a CD Training Course? Or is there a better solution - that will actually result in the opposite af the Vic Roads assumption.....?

    22,000 kms with no spills - well done matti-san.
     
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  4. I've done a number of post licence courses: HART advanced levels and CSBS to level 4. I am of the view that it has helped me to improve my assessment of the road and track conditions that I have come across. :)
     
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  5. I have done an advanced ride course and a ride day at PI, and will be doing another course in the future.

    I believe that is has helped me to improve my riding technique, how to read the conditions better, and be able to react quicker to avoid a hazard.
     
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  6. just a full day learner course so far. But we were shown a lot that was not needed for the test, but i'm gratefull for knowing once on the road.

    have had 1 minor off the day i got the bike, my own mistake and inexperience combined to unseat me. KNoew exactly what happened and no not to do it again.

    A lot of my learning has been don e by reading posts here on netrider AND then goping out and doing it myself to see what happens( counter steering/cornering/braking habits etc).

    A structured course would be good i think... not just 1 or 2 days but more like every Saturday for a month. Learn things one day, try out during the week, back next Saturday for report and more techniques/instruction etc. This would give time to understand what is being taught as well as opportunities to try it at your own pace for a week and in real riding conditions.


    To me training is critical and without it we will have more accidents fatalities from mistakes that are made from not knowing the correct way to approach things as well as inexperience. You can't teach experience but you can teach correct techiques and riding behaviour and what to watch for, And that has to count for something.

    Am planing on some advanced/defensive courses once i have my P's.
     
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  7. hmmm, good topic :)

    I have ridden 31,000 Kms in 11 months. No off's to date.......(apart from the scooter race)
    a couple of close calls but nothing I haven't been able to get out of, either by pure luck or awareness of my surroundings.
    Up until I got my Ls in January, I had only ever ridden on my mates dirt bikes and that was many years ago as a teenager.
    I was a pillion for over 10 years on a road bike and then had nothing to do with bikes again for another 10 years, until I got hooked on the sound of my brothers sports bike arriving home everyday when he moved in with me last year.

    I have had no formal training other than a half day course for my Ls and another half day course to get my Ps. I think having been on the road as a car driver for over 20 years has helped, so has travelling around in a semi/truck for 15 years.
    I ride the twisties all the time and do lots of varied riding in all conditions, rain hail or shine, peak hour and 3am too.
    I have gained lots of valuable advice from the vast network of riders I have connected with through this forum and am now passing some of that info on to other new comers I meet.
    I think rider training is something I would benefit from, I just haven't got around to it yet.
    I was lucky enough to be able to participate in the 24hr scooterthon last september, and had a lowside crash on the track, apart from that I have had no off's in the real world, the amount of knowledge I gained from racing the scooter can never be underestimated. I am a much better rider now because I took part in that race. I noticed a vast improvement to my riding afterwards, my ability to look through corners has really improved and I notice the difference it makes everyday. I also learnt alot about cornering, picking lines and judging apex's. I now know how to set up for a corner and pick lines tip in and look through without even thinking about it, whereas before I raced I was just riding around and hoping for the best without really knowing what effect my actions where having on the bike. I am not into hanging off the seat or dragging my knee yet, it's hard on a cruiser to hang off the seat with the pegs so far forward, but I'm sure once I upgrade I'll be giving it my best shot.
    Back on topic about courses and training, no amount of training will ever guarantee your safety, but it will help you be better equipped to handle situations should they arise. I intend to do a few courses once I am on my upgrade. I too have done the ridesafe CD and think it gave me a better understanding of what to look for and what to avoid, my perception skills seem to be adequate so far, but its difficult to say if thats from over 20 years of driving a car, doing the interactive CD or just natural ability.
    Many Kms in the saddle have given me a broad range of skills that even I don''t fully understand until they are put into practice at the right time and place, when Im not expecting it.... Like the other week on the Tarra valley trip, I had a scare and thought I was going to come a cropper, too much speed, wrong line, not enough braking power and a bit of panic.... just lift ya eyes, look where you want to go and you'll be ok is what I told myself at the time, I could see the grass rushing past on the side of the road, all too close for my liking, but I flicked the bike back onto the road and looked up ahead and powered on, it all worked out thankfully.
    Upon discussing what happened with other riders that saw the incident, I was told I did exactly what I should have, so it seems my instincts at the time where right. Lets hope its like that next time.
     
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  8. Voted - Important.

    Having said that, I admit I've never completed any driving courses & dont have any plans to do so
    averaging 20k a year on the bike.

    We all know there are Advanced Course out there (whether it be for car or bike) & I would say they can
    only be of benefit to everyone who completes them, even its only to receive confirmation that your current
    driving/riding habits are good.

    Whether they make you overconfidant or not I cant make a call on because I've never done a course to
    see.
     
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  9. Well I spent the first two Saturdays of this month at a Rider Safe course and it was a great thing to do (not that I had any choice, but it was really good.)

    Are Vic Roads seriously saying that a rider is better off going out there without any training at all?

    Eight hours of instruction has certainly not left me feeling overconfident, it has given me some basic tools and knowledge.

    I went out on the weekend with my best mate who has been riding for about five years, and she put me through a few drills, had a few chats about technique, and then followed me around in her car when she let me loose on the back streets.

    I will be working my way up to main roads in quiet times, then braving busier traffic, then the CBD. It only seems sensible to take things a step at a time.

    I could see a couple of young guns who couldn't wait to go full throttle, but if anything, attending the course might have helped them understand why that urge might be worth resisting.
     
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  10. the amount of people that would leave the courses BETTER prepared to ride on the streets would by FAR outweigh the number of riders that leave over-confident.
    there would be an element of "karate kid syndrome" (you know, when fly kicked stuff after watching the movie) but i honestly think that the more knowledge available the better the new riders will be.

    if someone can provide stats indicating that rider training results in more accidents or whatever i would be very surprised.

    btw, i have attended a grand total of ZERO riding/driving courses, therefore i can only offer opinion as opposed to actual experience.
     
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  11. Good topic

    I don't know when the system changed in NSW, to attending a course for both "L's and P's" but I did the Road Rules test to get my bike "L's" and then around the block for "P's".

    In my four years of initial riding I had quite a few stacks - in fact, everyone I knew in the Army who had a bike had stacked - it was just par the course, something like being a Netrider :p

    Upon returning to riding four years ago - I went and did a HART Risk Management Course. It was a "how to stay alive course", coupled with emergency braking, some higher speed cornering (along Old Pac Hwy) where the instructor followed each rider for a bit and also had tuition both in the classroom and on the road at various rest stops.

    Upon completion of the course, my riding (and my driving) changed for the better. So much more defensive, always scanning driveways and intersections, never taking off from red lights without checking traffic all stopped, always covering the brake with two fingers whilst still accelerating, squeezing as opposed to grabbing the brakes and just how much the back brake can assist in emergency stops. I still try and practice one emergency stop everytime I go for a ride.

    Has it helped - well I got pushed out of my lane about three rides after the course - my evasion worked well, but I couldn't get the back wheel up on the median strip :shock:

    As the instructor said - it doesn't matter whose fault an accident is - wisest words I have ever heard relating to motorbikes.

    Touch wood no other stacks since - but we aren't counting dirt roads are we :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
     
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  12. here in SA there was an article in the paper about 2 wheel safety.

    three bike riders & three cyclists died on the weekend.

    The Govt's road safety minister made several statements about how riders of all sorts need to be more careful & make sure they have training.

    And thank god, the advertiser interviewed a cycling & riding sefety person, who said that the problem is DRIVER training, and all drivers should be taught from day dot to be more aware of two wheel vehicles.

    was good to see the paper not being biased against us all for a change, though I suspect the only reason for that is because they like cyclists, not cause they like riders.
     
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  13. Here's cheers, Edgelett. It was like blaming murder victims for inhabiting the same planet as psychos. Really bad form to blame the cyclists.
     
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  14. Some fabulous replies guys. Many of you are saying the things that I have come to recognize.

    Caz - amazing - so many kms, in such a short time - well done.

    But, I get back to my original question - is there a better way to "pass the baton"? Or is the current system working OK?

    Here is what happened to me:

    Did my first Rider Training Course 15yrs after I first go my licence. Accidents before the course - took out the side of a truck in 1977 on way home from Canberra, broke some ribs, wrote bike off. Dropped my K100RS twice in 1996 (prior to the course).

    At the end of the course the instructor took us for an evaluation ride and critiqued us individually. Told me I wasn't scanning enough. Since then - no major stacks. Did lock up the front wheel on some wet grass (at around 5 kph) 2 years ago which caused me to go over (very embarrassing) - otherwise rarely have any near misses these days.

    Personally, I think I need to have someone check me for bad habits....
     
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  15. I started riding over 30yrs ago, and back then Victorian learners permits were a quick written test over the counter and no riding test required until you sat the license test. Being in the military I got moved around a bit and had to redo my learners permit in Qld, up there it was even stranger, again no riding test required but you had to be accompanied by a fully licensed rider whenever you went out on your bike ....... Not always an easy thing to find a licensed rider to ride with you whenever you wanted to go out for spin. So most of us took the L plates off and winged it.


    I got back into riding 4yrs ago and was surprised at the lack of training given to prospective road users, basically what equated to 7hrs of riding around a fully (safely) enclosed tarmac square, The written test for the license was in my opinion poorly done, we filled in the answers, handed the sheets in and were told pass or fail, but at no time did anybody go over the questions and tell us which one we got right or wrong.

    I consider my previous riding experience and 35 yrs road use as a driver has given me an advantage, but I would hate to be a brand spanking new road user being let loose on the roads after 7hrs of riding around in 1st and 2nd gear. What Victoria needs is the LAMS system and we need it now.
     
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  16. They did at the testing place I went too.
     
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  17. I won't mention names but maybe it's a case of,
    who tests the testers... one of our instructors was more interested in pointing out the wheel stand capabilities of a cb250
     
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  18. Just did a really good response and lost it so here is the shortened version... :wink:

    Critical importance but difficult to put a standard format that works for all riders...

    Here's my experience

    Did licence in uk 12 yrs ago - good in that it had compulsory training that included a road component and then a test with the examiner following you... only down side was the 125cc test with an unrestricted licence (which has now changed)

    Moved to Melb - resat test, but only P test, stunned how easy it was and had no road component. Did a number of courses with various places, one of best was a road based course, learning more about road positioning etc, very useful for me, but very dependent on who the instructor was (in my case a very experienced instructor)...

    I think NSW LAMS is about the best on offer at the moment, friends have completed and seem to have come away with a lot of experiences and knowledge and the ability to ride within their limits.

    Have learnt as much from other riders and group rides in Vic, NSW and now in Tas...
    I found the best training was with those groups when there happened to be someone that also did instructing or on rides with a large Learner/P Plater group, but this may be becoz of moving states a few times and being rather wary of unknown roads!
     
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  19. I got my license in QLD about five or six years ago. Same rules, but L or P plates were not required by law. So, no matter what license/permit you had you just rode around and risked getting pulled over. (which was practicly unheard of) :grin:

    I still undertook some rider training, as I value my life. The notion of training making one over confident is total bullshit. If you are properly trained, you will know full well your limits and the limits of your bike. When you know your limits, you will always be more careful on the roads.
     
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  20. I will be doing rider training when i get my bike. I am using netrider to gain theory experience, but i still havent got the basics of practical motorcycling experience yet - this is where rider training comes in. The basics like pulling off the centre stand and things like that sound really basic, but many people who do not own a bike or know anyone close who has a bike, we rely on the training to help :grin: I am 100% for rider training - im not sure about the deal in syd - but they should have a 2 day and 1/2 day course - so people who have ridden b4 dont need to distract others and can get their licence quickly.

    Ill be doing rider training whichever country/state im in :wink:
     
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