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Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by robsalvv, Apr 26, 2009.

  1. I was having a discussion recently about whether one is born gay or made gay or chooses to be gay... (no, this isn't my coming out post... lol... I'm a confirmed heterosexual :) ....BOOBIES!!!! Yum yum! lol)

    The discussion was a western-centric one so basically centered around bible. I know how NR's love a good religious debate so I thought I'd share this (perhaps well worn) pearler that was brought to my attention... I haven't seen it on NR before so I thought it'd be a good addition.

    It's a letter written to an american anti-gay radio talk show host, Dr. Laura Schlessinger, by persons unknown in 2000 and still doing the rounds occasionally

    Love it! :D

    Now I think I know what tack Hornet might take - that the OT laws don't hold due to the smashed temple and that the OT was really focussed on a time and a people... but I posit that this is a minority, not well understood view of the wider Christian community. Many Christians take a piecemeal approach to the bible and elevate certain phrases and thump their bibles hard about them... so to them any part of the bible is fair game.

    So... I invite comments on the quote above and on the topic at hand - is attraction to the same sex an innate (genetic?) "as god made you" quality, or is it a life style choice born of environmental and emotional conditioning??


    For mine... the vast majority of gay folks are born gay, i.e. as God made them...

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  3. "Why can't I own Canadians?" Ahahahah. For some reason that cracks me up.

    As for the actual topic. Strong religion has no place in modern society.
  4. Megaphat, that's vile on so many levels...

    Port... you're about to open pandora's box!
  5. the big problem i see with this statement is saying that newborns even have a sexuality :LOL:

    human sexuality can change over time. perhaps there is some nuture but mainly nature, ie genetic disposition.

    any person can have a level of attraction to the same sex, opposite sex, both sexes or have no attraction to either sex.

    people often overlook the last one. i once dated a girl who had no interest in anything sexual. as you can imagine that was disappointing and didnt last long, but it did open my mind a little to the fact that terms like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual are quite limiting and flawed
  6. Asexual is quite common.

    And bisexuality amongst women, if not always, is certainly extremely prevalent now up to my generation. No one seems to mind them though. :? :LOL:
  7. I don't think that you're born gay but over time something changes in you. That could possibly be circumstance, a chemical change in the brain or whatever, either way it's cool by me (just thought Id point that out :))

    What bugs me though is why some gay men decide that they suddenly have to speak like a fairy and prance about like one once they discover they like the cock :LOL: What's up with that? Can anyone shed some light? All the gay friends that I know are just normal everyday type guys so the whole 'effeminate' thing really confuses me.
  8. I think if you're going to judge that one anecdotally, you'd need a hell of a sample size.

    I only grew up with one kid who ended up loving the cawk. He was always fruity (even well before puberty), every English assignment got turned in a musical, always into fashion etc, and his 4 brothers were as hick as they come. He definitely seemed like a nature over nurture, but again, that's about as pitiful a sample size as they come.

    As for the blokes that start to talk funny, maybe its physiological. Don't think too far into that one. (I'm kidding btw, baffles me too).
  9. Have a look at it from this angle.

    If a person is born gay, i.e attracted to the same sex then it is logical to conclude that another person can be born a pedofile i.e attracted to children.

    To make things clear, I do not agree or disagree with the above statement, I just want to see what people think.
  10. I am grateful that homosexuality isn't compulsory.
  11. Just been discussing this one in a few other places, and I think it's one of those things where the truth is very complex and we try to over-simplify. To save me the typing, here are some comments of mine from the other discussion:
  12. homos-are-gay.

    religion should be banned.
  13. In the performer and hospitality circles, which have a significantly higher proportion of gays than the wider societal 4% (- Bravus' post), I've become aware of a statistical outlier group who chose to be gay for a variety of reasons - but by far the majority just knew innately that they liked the same sex.

    Before I understood anything about sexuality, I knew that I was attracted to girls. It confused me at first because girls were those annoying people who teased you and who smelt funny :LOL: but it "felt" right. This is a common experience written about time and time again.

    Point is, I didn't choose to like girls. That choice was made in my programming/wiring... as I assume it is in the vast majority of heterosexuals (apply vice-verse for gals)

    A number of the gay people I've spoken to just "knew" they liked the same sex. They didn't choose it - just like I didn't choose to like girls. Now, you can claim a small sample size if you like, but I'm confident in extrapolating that finding out to the broader community.

    I would posit too, that even if you had a strong mother, weak father, you would not turn gay UNLESS you had a predisposition to. (One muso I knew in the old days had a strong mum and a trucker father... but he was as camp as they come and soo sooo sooooo gay!)

    Is this predisposition genetic? Is it hazy wiring? Is the decision made at some point in the gestation period during a hormonal imbalance? No one is 100% sure at present.

    The implication if such a predisposition is found to be true, will be huge.

    In particular, the bible authors of the day probably assumed it was a lifestyle choice, an abomination in the eyes of the lord since humans were made in two complimentary parts... however if one is born, i.e. made gay, then all the stuff in the bible is just ignorant social commentary... and all the anti gay bible based justifications will carry far less weight.

    Nightgash, what you say is logical - if one is predisposed to paedophilia, but society's values do not excuse such a person's behaviour. There are clear and sound moral reasons why we should protect children from the likes of these sorts of humans and strong reasons to quarantine such a person from the wider society or chemically change their wiring. Your post though is dangerously close to linking homosexuality with paedophilia which is a silly link a lot of christians draw (why??). Just want to be clear that the two are mutually exclusive.

    Dougz - a lot of gay guys are effeminate and a little camp (some are a lot camp!). That's how they are. I'm sure a few put it on though. The one guy I've met who was hetero then decided that being gay suited him better, did not turn camp as well with his lifestyle choice... a sample of one, for what it's worth.
  14. Interesting post Rob.

    If you think about life, why we are here, our only reason for being is to procreate. The brain exists only to allow us to find a member of the opposite sex and make more of us. It's programmed into us. Therefore, for someone to prefer someone of their own sex, the drive to do so must be immense.

    Now, if you accept that we exist solely to procreate and the body is just the mechanism to do that and that the brain is the controlling factor, then it's not too hard to imagine someone who is just 'wired' differently. So for a proportion of homosexuals I believe they were just born with that leaning.

    There are others who enjoy the physical act and that's what drives them.

    The effeminate men, I don't get that, but then I don't get the butch women either. And even more, why feminine lesbians will be with a masculine lesbian. Surely, if you're looking for a masculine lover, just go for one with all the parts?

    Whatever, live and let live, it's the variety of the human race that makes it so different.
  15. I read up to boobies and am not distracted
  16. There are good non-literalist Biblical scholars who will tell you that basically all of the Biblical prohibitions were actually of various kinds of coercive and abusive actions, such as raping a man beaten in battle to shame him, and really don't apply to a mutual, consensual gay relationship.
  17. There's also the thing about wasting of sperm - think Onan and "spilling his seed on the ground". A guy who prefers sex with another man is likewise wasting his procreative capacity, so is this the basis from which the biblical proscription of homosexuality arose?
  18. Actually, the Onan story is interesting. It wasn't about 'wasting sperm' at all. Onan's brother had died, and Onan was required to marry his deceased brother's wife and give her children. No pension for the woman in those days, so her children would be required to care for her in her old age. But either Onan's own wife didn't like the idea of him having kids by the brother's sister, or Onan didn't like the idea of those kids inheriting his wealth along with his own kids. Whatever his motivation, he was 'pulling out in time' whenever he slept with the former brother's wife so as not to get her pregnant. Nothing at all to do with 'every sperm is sacred', everything to do with making sure widows didn't starve to death in their old age.

    Imagine if the church had obsessed about caring for people's needs instead of about sex...
  19. 2.

    Bravus, isn't the Onan thing used by the Catholic church to argue against contraception?
  20. Yep. They're wrong. ;)