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Hawke calls Howard out on Liberal lies

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by robsalvv, Nov 21, 2007.

  1. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/20/1195321779086.html

    Of course he's biased... but the points are well made.

  2. Whether its on a playground swing or the xbox infront of the tele - most would have heard this at some time or another in relation to true blue aussie fairness:

    "You've had your turn (Mr Howard), now let someone else have a go"

    Love it! Heard on RRR last week :)
  3. Hawk - Howard, pot, kettle, black.... :roll:
  4. Do share Sudz, what do you think Hawke told fibs about?

    :LOL: @ BB. I can just imagine Rudd saying that too. :)
  5. Ex-prime Ministers should remain ex. No-one want to hear what that boring old fool Fraser has to say, nor the bitter old Hawke. They had their time to speak; now is the time to shut up.
  6. Actually, since they all get paid for their opinion, clearly people DO wanna hear what they have to say.
  7. On Bob Hawke: "A man of little originality and few intellectual interests", "of deeply narcissistic personality". Neil Blewett (one of Hawks own ministers)

    Bob Hawke: : "We have been uniformly impressed by the competence and knowledge and commitment of these ministers and their associates to the economic development of Myanmar as a basis for national and political advancement of the people of their country," He is talking about SLAWK, the repressive genocidal regime currently controlling Burma.

    As to lies, well just pick any time he opened his mouth on the influence of Unions on Government policy and the 'accord'. Also anything to do with Labours factional internecine warfare.
  8. and one of Hawkes old pearler's : "..no child will live in poverty".. Good one Bob!! :roll:
  9. will you say the same thing about Howard?

    Rob I actually think the article was incredibly poorly written and aside from the final iraq point (in that the actions of invading iraq have had a negative security effect) it is all a bit too hopeful.

    This sentence in particular is a hideous mangled wreck.
  10. Ok Sudz, they are important lies, but not so blatant as the one's Hawke is deconstructing.

    In your opinion, is Hawke wrong about what he's said about Howard?

    Personally. I've long been aware that the pay and conditions I enjoy on staff, unrepresented by a union, were as a direct result of union efforts... so Bob's at least right about the first point.
  11. I want to hear what they have to say, they led our country for many years and are intelligent and articulate. Even if I don't agree with everything that they say it is still thought provoking and interesting. These two have been two of our better PMs, the social changes they bought in were good.

    Only a closed minded person does not listen to other perspectives. :grin:
  12. that wasn't a lie. That was a policy statement and was prefaced by the words, "with the cooperation of the states..." which he didn't get.

    Yeh fair point Russ - for a rhode scholar he coulda writ it betterer :)... but is it a fair essay?

    Just FTR, I'm neither a labor/liberal supporter...
  13. In 1963 Bob Hawke drank a yard-glass in 11 seconds, gaining his place in the Guinness World Record book.

    His opinion is therefore, always relevant, and beyond impolite question.
  14. I did not respond in order to get into a debate on specifics, only to state that if either of them, (or Rudd for that matter), told me he had a mother, I would demand to see his navel. I trust no politician, none, it is a requisite of their chosen career to lie and deceive, and those who have risen to lead their party have simply lied and deceived more effectively than the rest. I judge politicians only on results, and the lying little turd will be my reluctant choice because so far the economy has not blown up in our faces and Rudd is just a sack of hot air with a top PR machine.
  15. no i wouldn't say so. the three key point he makes are very specifically along the Rudd party lines. I would say it is highly unlikely that hawke and Rudd just so happen to have identical views.

    likewise I think that simply because Labor floated the dollar and implemented reforms, does not reduce the Liberals input into the economic success. The nature of the reforms ironically mean the government has less control on the economy and it is rather the reserve bank and banks who drive it now. The Skill of the howard government has been to
    a) not be tempted into trying to change a working system, and
    b) making it look like they are controlling it.

    point a) is not a moot point. it is intensely difficult when doing NOTHING to the system is the best option. there is always someone with an axe to grind and if you don't do something it is very easy to suggest you are incompetent because of inaction.
    an example of this gone wrong is the british 42 point identity scheme pro-pilot posted. govts want to be seen to be doing things. the correlation between the usefullness and the appearance of usefulness is often inversely proportional.
    In other words, if the govt is really doing something about security, you won't know about it. if the security measure is useless (Id cards, facial recognition, computer profiling etc) then it will be splashed all over the news and people think the govt is doing good things.
    So the dilemma for govts is do we do good work or do we appear to do good work. the same could be inferred for the howard govt and the economy, the reforms might have been in place, but the howard govt ensured their success, no mean feat.
  16. Cool Sudz, just wanted to understand the basis for the kettle pot thing. It's your opinion. Fair enough. I thought you had caught Hawke out in a lie about Howard lying... I thought this was going to get juicy.

    Having been the boyfriend of a liberal back benchers daughter for a couple of years, I can say from first hand experience that not all politicians lie. The ones that are active in their electorate work farking hard. They don't get paid enough. No, seriously, they don't.

    By the way, I love the "i didn't post to debate" line... seems like I'm copping it a lot lately. :LOL:

    :-k Russ, of course it's no surprise Hawke view is similar to Rudd's, but working conditions off the back of union effort, the economic statistics inherited by Hawke and the opinion of Australia terrorist target status are no less true just coz Hawke/Rudd say it???
  17. How?
  18. I don't have the economic background to really know the extent of the influence of either parties to effectively critique those statements (and personal anedotes or experiences are not enough)..
    My point was rather that Hawkes 'views' fall directly into line with current Labor stances and his overstatement of labor work and understatement of Liberal input means the essay is really just another labour advert rather than an enlightening discussion.
    ever leader, regardless of party, will differing approaches, the fact that Hawkes essay falls so neatly into Rudds hands is detrimental to the 'fairness' of the essay. I know spin when I hear it.

  19. ](*,)

    i thought it was obvious from what I said :grin:

    basically I could call it the 'reserves effect'
    every two years a new crop of full time soldiers get transferred into a reserve unit adn always they bring the 'everything's going to change because we know how to do it better'... mainly because they see the reserves as not up to scratch.
    It takes them about two years to adapt to the realities of reserve life and just as they eventually get back to the systems implemented prior to their arrival (because hey, that is what works). then they leave and the cycle begins again.

    Liberals could have done the same, implemented their own new reforms the moment they arrived, (workchoices) changed everyting towards their ideologies instead they first consolidated. It is always forgotten in partisan arguments that often these economic reforms weren't an epiphany from one man or party, it was collective knowledge that drew us in that direction. So whilst Labor implemented them, Liberal thinking was going very much along similar lines (despite the political point scoring when such reforms are implemented).
    Liberals have also made economic management changes, not as far reaching as the Labor ones, but that is a moot point really: huge changes didn't need to be made
  20. This speech reminds me of a time when men were men, sheep were scared, and labor was f*ckin' PROUD to be labor. In 8 years' time maybe it can be that way again.